Skip to content

Todd Bentley: Punishment or Grace?

March 26, 2009

What is the heart of the Father toward His children who have sinned? What is His attitude toward His children who have repented?

This is what many in the church seem to think should happen to Todd Bentley:

You can get out, Todd, as soon as you've proven your repentance.

You can get out, Todd, as soon as you've proven your repentance and earned forgiveness.

But is this the heart of God? Is this how the Father treats His children? This is what the Father says:

7 I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity [a] and will rebuild them as they were before. 8 I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me. 9 Then this city will bring me renown, joy, praise and honor before all nations on earth that hear of all the good things I do for it; and they will be in awe and will tremble at the abundant prosperity and peace I provide for it.’

Jeremiah 33:7-9

When the Father forgives, He not only forget the sin, but He chooses to rebuild His fallen child as they were before. Is that an expression of “greasy grace?” No, it is so they can bring Him “renown, joy, praise and honor.” It is all about Him. Restoration brings Him joy and honor.

Bill Johnson made a fabulous point in his sermon on March 22. He spoke at length about Todd and his restoration. This is actually an incredibly meaty sermon and covers a lot of points. You can see the entire sermon below:

more about “God is the God of Restoration!“, posted with vodpod

What he said that was so fabulous was if Todd’s repentance is false and we accept it, God is not going to be angry. Todd will still have to answer to the Father for his sin, but we will have obeyed the word and extended mercy. If, however, Todd’s repentance is genuine and we do not accept it, he will be fine, and we will fall under the judgment of God for our sin.

God has made it abundantly clear in His word that if we do not forgive others, He will not forgive us. He hasn’t given us the option of judging whether a heart is repentant or not because He alone knows the secrets of men’s hearts.

Pastor Johnson also talks about the Political Spirit and the Religious Spirit, both of which oppose Grace. The Political Spirit washes its hands like Pilate did in order to appear righteous. The Religious Spirit takes up stones to kill the sinner, forgetting their own sin and need of mercy, in order to appear righteous.

The Spirit of Christ stands with the sinner and gives grace because, as Romans 2:4 says, “God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?”

Titus 2:11-14 makes it abundantly clear that grace is what empowers us to live holy.

11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

The passage above makes it abundantly clear that godliness and purity are processes. Grace teaches us. It is impossible to learn the lessons of grace without mistakes, just as it is impossible to learn mathematics without making mistakes. You do not destroy children for their failure to perfectly master the lessons of mathematics. You do not destroy college students for their failure to master the concepts of Calculus I. In the same way you do not destroy the Father’s children for their failure to master the lessons of grace.

Does this grace lead to compromise? No. Those who have been forgiven much, scripture says, love much. That love expresses itself in gratitude to the Father for His amazing grace that you have no desire to repeat the offense.

About these ads
29 Comments leave one →
  1. March 26, 2009 3:02 am

    Good point – How often do we keep someone “under” a sin? We must learn that whilst we do have to be wise and exercise discernment, we cannot keep people under the effects of hang-ups that God has already washed away. King David messed-up in a “Royal” way – he commited adultery, murder etc etc (By “my” standards he goofed-up pretty bad….even worse than Todd(?))God restored him to the exact same place he held before his “fall” – as if the sin had never been commited. He even called David a man after his own heart. Yikes! That makes me really somber about extending or passing judgment to Todd.

    In any case, I want to be the person helping him recover, praying for his restoration, cheering him on, urging him to give himself to holiness in the grace that comes be being forgiven completely.

    If in any case his repentance is not genuine, that it is not for me to judge – God will judge the motives in the hearts of men through Jesus (Rom 2:16; 1 Cor. 4:5)

  2. March 26, 2009 11:55 pm

    Did you get the “actor” Bentley to pose for this pic just for your post here? GGGeeeezzzz, what ever happened to the good old days when heritics where actually put in such devices?

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      March 27, 2009 12:54 am

      Thanks for illustrating the whole point of the article!

  3. Arrew permalink
    March 27, 2009 9:54 am

    I’ve read your articles and commentary in this forum with both amazement and grief. For though you profess a love for the Lord Jesus Christ, your doctrines on divorce, remarriage, salvation, grace and even the nature of Christ are full of error and untruth.

    If you are a genuine disciple of Christ, then I ask you to read this rebuttal and answer for yourself whether your ideas and opinions actually line up with what the Scriptures say.

    It is my wish that we both love Christ and grow in maturity in Him.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: What he (Pastor Bill Johnson) said that was so fabulous was if Todd’s repentance is false and we accept it, God is not going to be angry. Todd will still have to answer to the Father for his sin, but we will have obeyed the word and extended mercy.

    Rebuttal: Where in the Scriptures does God instruct us to accept false repentance? Instead, did not God warn us to test the spirits? Did Jesus not warn in the last days there will be many false prophets exhibiting false humility and yet commit sin?

    Spirits are not human. No where in scripture are we permitted to judge the hearts of man. Only God can judge the heart. He did not entrust that to the church. You do not cite a single scripture that pertains to the repentance of a brother.

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    Matthew 7: 15-23 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    Mark 13: 5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.

    Mark 13: 22-23 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    Acts 20: 29-31 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

    2 Peter 2: 1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    Statement: If, however, Todd’s repentance is genuine and we do not accept it, he will be fine, and we will fall under the judgment of God for our sin.

    Rebuttal: In what manner has Todd Bentley demonstrated genuine repentance? Has he given the body of Christ any evidence that he has sat down with Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner and Jack Deere to resolve the marriage problems between him and Shonnah? Has he set aside everything (including his affair with the nanny/intern) so that he can devote his time and energy to mending his marriage? Is it genuine repentance when a man is still dating his mistress while seeing a marriage counsellor with his wife? Did he demonstrate patience, godly kindness towards his wife, forgiveness for the things she has done wrong and the hurt she has caused him? Has he acknowledged his own part to blame and is he resolved to change his own damaging behaviour? Did he humble himself and said ‘I will decline stepping into the pulpit so that I may not stumble others?’ Did he set aside enough time, energy and resources to commit to this process of repair?

    Or did he spend time with the intern, rush through his divorce, quickly married the intern, and is now asking Christians to send him money so that he can get back into the pulpit for more unprovable ministry?

    Where in the Scriptures does it teach that believers will fall under the judgment of God for erroneously rejecting true repentance? I use the term ‘erroneous’ because I believe no genuine child of God is deliberately unkind, unmerciful and ungracious. In my walk with Christ, the only time I’ve seen mature believers withhold acceptance is when they seriously doubt the honesty of the one declaring he has repented. They do not judge his heart, they judge his actions.

    Scripture never gives us the right to judge the repentance of another. Their repentance isn’t to us if we are not involved in it. Their repentance is to the Father, not to us. Scripture says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. It doesn’t have a caveat about if their repentance is genuine or not. By the way, prove to me Todd had sex with her before they were married.

    I Cor 5: 9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

    1 Cor 6:2-4 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Statement: God has made it abundantly clear in His word that if we do not forgive others, He will not forgive us. He hasn’t given us the option of judging whether a heart is repentant or not because He alone knows the secrets of men’s hearts.

    Rebuttal: The Scripture talks about unforgiveness as a sin. It is to enable those who want to come to Christ and who have come to Christ to continually forgive those who hurt them. This Scripture is not a licence for Christian to legitimise immoral and criminal behaviour.

    If a man rapes my teenage daughter, I am to forgive him. But I am not to agree the rape is acceptable or tolerable nor am I under any obligation to make my daughter befriend him. In fact, it will be a disastrous failing on my part, a sin as a parent, if I did not do everything in my power to remove my girl from the memory of the crime. The Lord, I think, will want me to even pack up my whole family and move to another state to give my daughter a chance to heal and recover. If anyone condemns me for not inviting this man into my house for dinner, even though he has repented and even accepted Christ, I am willing to stand condemned. My calling as a parent supersedes my acceptance and treatment of this man as a brother.

    Likewise, in the case of Todd Bentley. Our love for the church and lambs in the flock supersede our mercy towards Todd Bentley. SHOW ME THAT ONE IN SCRIPTURE! Our forgiveness of his sins does not require us to expose him further to the rest of the flock. Besides, we as a church have not yet tested the genuineness of his repentance with the Test of Time. Peter was restored within 50 days of publicly, repeatedly denying Christ. That’s a go to Hell offense, lose your salvation. Is what Todd did worse? In the nine months rushing through divorce and then suddenly marrying the intern, how do you know he won’t turn his attention to other women in the ministry once we open the doors to him? How do you know he won’t booze again, steal money again, cheat on his marriage again, boast about unverifiable miracles again?

    Todd Bentley isn’t the first lascivious ‘minister’ who lusted after women in the temple of God. Read the story of Eli’s sons who prowled after women and how God judged Eli for not doing anything to step them. This I believe is a strong warning to Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner and Jack Deere, and any other ‘men of God’ who fail to restrain Bentley in his excesses.

    1 Sam 2: 22 Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. So he said to them, “Why do you do such things? I hear from all the people about these wicked deeds of yours. No, my sons; it is not a good report that I hear spreading among the LORD’s people. If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?” His sons, however, did not listen to their father’s rebuke, for it was the LORD’s will to put them to death.

    I Sam 3: 12-14 At that time I will carry out against Eli everything I spoke against his family—from beginning to end. For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons made themselves contemptible, and he failed to restrain them. Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, ‘The guilt of Eli’s house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.’
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Pastor Johnson also talks about the Political Spirit and the Religious Spirit, both of which oppose Grace. The Political Spirit washes its hands like Pilate did in order to appear righteous. The Religious Spirit takes up stones to kill the sinner, forgetting their own sin and need of mercy, in order to appear righteous.

    Rebuttal: Bill Johnson is in serious error of calling good evil and evil good. The grace he is promoting is without Truth and Holiness. It is a manipulation of the Scriptures to label those who are calling for ministers of God to be pure and blameless as ‘Religious Spirits.’ Read the life of the Apostles, see if anyone of them had affairs with their interns, divorced their wives, remarry their mistresses, mutilate their bodies with tattoos and piercings, and are caught boozing on the job. To this day, charismatic and Pentecostal churches who have written to Todd Bentley asking for evidence of the resurrection miracles have not received an iota of proof. If this is the way Todd Bentley carries himself, he should not condemn genuine Christians for doubting his apostleship. Furthermore, there is mounting evidence on paper and tape of his lying concerning his physical mutilations, his revelations from God, his dealings with his family and staff, his handling of financial matters.

    If Bill Johnson stops Christians from asking these important questions, then Bill Johnson himself has to be investigated. A true man of God does not cover up. He stands in the light.

    John 3: 19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

    Ephesians 5: 11-14 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth, and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Statement: The Spirit of Christ stands with the sinner and gives grace because, as Romans 2:4 says, “God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?”

    Rebuttal: Either you have made a poor choice of words or your theology is unsound. Nowhere does the Bible teach that ‘the Spirit of Christ stands with the sinner.’ Instead, this is what the Scriptures say:

    2 Cor 6: 14-18 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

    “Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….…

    Statement: Titus 2:11-14 makes it abundantly clear that grace is what empowers us to live holy.

    Rebuttal: It is good you know this Scripture but what is your definition of ‘holy?’ Bill Johnson, if you’ve quoted him correctly, is in serious error of defining ‘holy’ as those who are willing to gloss over Todd Bentley’s immorality and blasphemy.

    Galatians 5:19-25 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

    2 Timothy 3: 1-9 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

    They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Statement: The passage …. makes it abundantly clear that godliness and purity are processes. Grace teaches us. It is impossible to learn the lessons of grace without mistakes, just as it is impossible to learn mathematics without making mistakes.

    Rebuttal: You are intentionally downplaying the seriousness of the matter and diluting the word of God. God terms disobedience and unholiness as ‘sin.’ In the Bible, there is no such thing as mistakes. There isn’t a single Scripture that talks about mistakes. This language is not known in the Old Testament nor the New Testament. Even Jesus has never mentioned ‘mistakes!’ God uses the term ‘sin’ because of the severity of the matter.

    Where in the Scripture are we taught that the path of grace is fraught by mistakes? The truth is WE SIN. And God tell us to repent and separate ourselves from sin.

    If we downplay the severity of sin, then no wonder so many ‘Christians’ keep getting caught on the same ‘mistake’ over and over again. How many times does a ‘Christian’ repent over the same sin? Scriptures say anyone who is born again is no longer a slave to sin. Those who profess Christianity and yet repeat their same sins over and over again are without a doubt still slaves to sin. Either that or they make God a liar.

    Doesn’t Bill Johnson himself preach that as sons of God, we’re supposed to live like heaven has invaded earth? What kind of invasion is it if even an empowered ‘apostle’ is caught boozing, womanising and breaking up his own marriage? There is no power, no truth, no conviction to this form of godliness.

    Ephesians 5: 1-7 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

    Romans 6: 18-19 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Statement: You do not destroy children for their failure to perfectly master the lessons of mathematics. You do not destroy college students for their failure to master the concepts of Calculus I. In the same way you do not destroy the Father’s children for their failure to master the lessons of grace.

    Rebuttal: If that is the teaching, why did Todd Bentley destroy his own marriage for his and Shonnah’s failure to master the lessons of forgiving and loving one another in Christ? Isn’t it even more grievous since Todd Bentley claims God ‘prophesied’ to him Shonnah was to be his wife? What happens to that prophesy now?

    Jeremiah 23: 24 I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through Baal worship. Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the LORD. “Is not my word like fire,” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

    “Therefore,” declares the LORD, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. Yes,” declares the LORD, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The LORD declares.’ Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the LORD. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the LORD.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Does this grace lead to compromise? No. Those who have been forgiven much, scripture says, love much. That love expresses itself in gratitude to the Father for His amazing grace that you have no desire to repeat the offence.

    Rebuttal: In August and September last year, Freshfire Ministry, John Arnott, Bill Johnson and Peter Wagner issued statements telling the Christian world that Todd Bentley had had ‘similar problems’ with other women in his ministry. Does this not mean Todd Bentley is repetitiously unable to control himself with other women? How then can we say Todd Bentley has ‘no desire to repeat the offence?’

    2 Cor 7:10-11 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.
    Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? “I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.”
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Divorce is a bad thing, and I think that Todd believes that more now than ever.

    Rebuttal: If I tell you hamburgers are bad, lots of grease, killer cholesterol, etc and then at the picnic, I eat a whole plateful of hamburgers, say 20, will you believe me? If I say beating up my wife is bad and then I spend the whole week taking a broom to her head, will you believe me? If I say gambling is bad but own two of the largest casinos in Las Vegas, will you still believe me?

    What evidence do we have that Todd Bentley believes divorce is a ‘bad thing?’ Are you sure he doesn’t mean it’s bad because he has to fork out alimony, deal with custody hearings for his kids, cope with the bad publicity of preaching faithfulness and God’s miracle for marriages and yet blowing it in his own life?

    Divorce isn’t a ‘bad’ thing. It is a hateful, heinous, despicable thing. It is DEATH. Death to love, death to life, death to peace in the family, death to mental and emotional health, death to little kids’ guarantee of a safe and warm place on this earth. DEATH to God’s promise of healing, restoration and reconciliation. God hates it so much He says ‘don’t even come crying to Me when it happens.’

    Malachi 2:13-16 Another thing you do: You flood the LORD’s altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. You ask, “Why?” It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. “I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.”
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: The point I had in posting is that the church has turned divorce into something it never was supposed to be. Marriage is not the litmus test for ministry.

    Rebuttal: You are accusing 2,000 years of faithful Christian scholarship of twisting God’s commands about marriage. What is your evidence? Just because some person wrote an essay last year that a certain Greek word doesn’t mean divorce and Jesus was merely angry about men having mistresses while not signing the proper papers to let their wives off the hook? Are the disciples actually bothering Jesus about men not signing court papers?

    I agree with you marriage isn’t the litmus test. Faithfulness is. Faithfulness to one’s spouse, to one’s children, to one’s resources, to giftings, to talents, and most important of all, faithfulness in obedience to Christ.

    Here are the qualifications for ministry, according to the Bible.
    1 Timothy 3: 1-7 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

    Titus 1: 1-6-9 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Statement: Divorce is the product of failure and sin in people’s lives. It is a horribly destructive thing, but it is not beyond the healing power of the blood of Jesus.

    Rebuttal: The Bible does not teach that divorce is not a product of ‘failure’ or of any general sin. Instead it is the product of a ‘hardened heart.’ The heart described here is one that has become hardened against God’s word. The heart is hardened to the point where it can no longer believe that God can step into the marriage and intervene. The heart is hardened to the point of total unbelief. It cannot comprehend that Jesus Christ’s blood shed on the cross for the forgiveness of sins is extended to the sin of the offending spouse. It refuses to accept and acknowledge that the offending spouse is forgiven (not by works, but by grace). It holds a condemning grudge against the spouse’s sin and declares the marriage doomed or hopeless. This hardened heart is deceitful. While it wants to preach unconditional forgiveness, it cannot unconditionally forgive the spouse for disappointing, failing, offending and sinning.

    Matthew 19: 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: I don’t justify divorce any more than I justify cancer. It just is. It’s part of the fallen nature of man. But 50% of the church is divorced and we cannot write half of the body of Christ off when scripture doesn’t support it.

    Rebuttal: To justify means to make something that is wrong become right. And that’s exactly what you’re doing. You are justifying the sin of divorce from one corner of your mouth while agreeing it is bad with the other corner.

    According to your reasoning, what happens if 1,000 paedophiles gather together and form a church and say ‘We are all paedophiles, therefore surely paedophilia isn’t as great a sin as people make it out to be?’ What if 1,000 murderers, rapists, homosexuals and bestialists do the same? Do the numbers and the type of sin determine the Scriptures?

    Is it not the Scriptures that determine what is to be held right and wrong?

    Fifty percent of the church may be divorced but according to Romans 5: 23 ALL HAVE SINNED and fallen short of God’s glory.

    Isn’t it true God is calling ALL TO REPENT FROM ALL THEIR SINS? If a liar is to repent from lying and a thief is to repent from stealing, shouldn’t an adulterer and a fornicator repent from committing adultery and fornicating? Shouldn’t those who keep divorcing their spouses stop divorcing their spouses?

    1 Cor 6: 9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Divorce is not forbidden in scripture, but like all things not forbidden in Scripture, the Father has shown us a better way.

    Rebuttal: Completely against the Scriptures. Divorce is forbidden to ALL except in cases of ‘porneia’ (Greek word for ‘fornication’ often translated ‘uncleanliness’ or ‘marital unfaithfulness.’) Jesus doesn’t even care if you gave a woman a certificate of divorce or not! No matter how you twist and turn, just read the Scriptures below and see if it does not mean what it simply says.

    Luke 16:18 Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

    Matthew 5: 31 It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

    If the word ‘divorce’ here merely means ‘put away’ as argued by the essay you’ve posted, this Scripture will read: “It has been said, ‘Anyone who puts away his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who puts away his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the ‘put away’ woman commits adultery.”

    This Scripture then becomes illogical and ludicrous. How can a woman become an adulteress simply because she has been put away? According to the essay you put up, it is alleged these ‘put away’ wives are shut up in the harem or sent packing into the streets. Why should a woman tucked into a dark corner of her husband’s house or left wandering begging for food be labelled an ‘adulteress?’ Isn’t it her husband who is the fornicator and adulterer and not this innocent ‘put away’ woman?

    Read the account in Mark 2 for further clarity. The disciples were acting like you, doubting Jesus was so strict about divorce. They questioned Him again after they parted with the Pharisees and were alone with Him.

    Mark 2:12 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

    It is critical to understand Jesus did not use the word ‘moichao’ which is Greek for ‘adultery’ but ‘porneia’ when He talked about ‘marital uncleanliness.’ Bible scholars equate ‘porneia’ for the Hebrew word ‘erwa.’ Those sins categorized as ‘erwa’ in the book of Leviticus is the most despicable and gross type of sexual uncleanliness. This includes bestiality, incest and homosexuality, where the penalty is death.

    This highly restrictive command issued by Jesus was understood by the disciples and can be seen by their shocked response.

    Matthew 19: 9-10 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for uncleanliness, and marries another woman commits adultery. The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

    Further, the Scripture does not say ‘if you sleep with another man while still married to your husband you’re an adulteress. It says if you MARRY another man while your original husband is still alive, you’re an adulteress. The marriage ceremony is legislated by the customs and government of the day. The Bible claims authority OVER and ABOVE this human instrument.

    Romans 7:2-3 By law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Divorce is permissible. It doesn’t mean it’s the best and highest God has for us.

    Rebuttal: Why have you added to the Scriptures and inserted the word ‘divorce’ into 1 Cor 10? On whose or what authority do you do this?

    1 Cor 10: 23-24 Everything is permissible—but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

    Look what happens if I insert whatever I fancy into the Scripture:

    • All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Rape is permissible. It doesn’t mean it’s the best and highest God has for us.
    • All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Paedophilia is permissible. It doesn’t mean it’s the best and highest God has for us.
    • All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Murder is permissible. It doesn’t mean it’s the best and highest God has for us.
    • All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Homosexuality is permissible. It doesn’t mean it’s the best and highest God has for us.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    Statement: If the hearts of people did not harden, we would not need divorce. It’s like grace. If we could walk in sinless perfection, we wouldn’t need grace and forgiveness. But since we aren’t perfect, God made provision for us for when we fail.

    Rebuttal: This is an awful lie of the devil, that God is asking man to walk in sinless perfection. God is not asking us to walk in sinless perfection and then providing divorce as a way out for us when we fail. Your cart is before your horse. If you get into this carriage, you are going to drive straight into the ravine and plunge to your death!

    God is showing us we ARE IN SIN and we need Him to come in and RESCUE OUR BROKEN MARRIAGES. He says if person comes to Him, He will make that person a new creation. When a man or woman repents and comes to God, God promises to give the person a brand new heart. One that is able to love Him and obey him. This heart will become full with goodness, tenderness, mercy, kindness and forgiveness. This heart will be strong, courageous and truthful.

    The old wicked, selfish, cruel, deceitful, unfaithful, degenerate, lustful and stubborn heart will be yanked out and thrown into the other end of the earth.

    God promises the man and woman with such a brand new heart will then be able to love Him with all its heart, mind and soul, and will be able to love his neighbour as himself.

    Such a heart is the heart that brings complete healing and reconciliation in a broken marriage. It is completely yielded to the Holy Spirit and God is pleased to fill it with love, joy and peace.

    2 Cor 5: 17-19 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

    Psalm 103: 11-12 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

    Psalm 103: 2-5 Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits – who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion, who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

    Statement: But the reality is that there are more divorced people in church than people who have only had one marriage. Scripture does not allow us to treat them as second-class citizens in the Kingdom.

    Rebuttal: If you’re divorced, repent! Sin no more. There’s no first class or second class in God’s kingdom. Either you’re in or you’re out. If you’re still struggling in your marriage, still fighting with one another, hopping from one man to another, check yourself. Are you sure you are born again? If you’re born again, why are you still bound to as slaves to sin instead of slaves to righteousness? Why isn’t the fruit of the Holy Spirit manifest in your marriage?

    2 Cor 13: 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

    Again, Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Finally, your advice to this woman in an abusive relationship.
    Statement: Abusive relationships are never of God. If you or your children are being abused, LEAVE. LEAVE NOW and don’t look back. If your godly influence was going to help him find Jesus, he would have done so by now. You can pray for him in a safe house just as effectively.

    Rebuttal: This woman should go to a relative’s home or a Sister in Christ’s home and seek shelter there. The man must be reported to the church leadership. The elders must confront him and persuade him to repent and enter a period of discipline and rehabilitation. The church must provide financial support to this abused woman and her children until she and her husband are reconciled.

    This woman MUST NOT get rid of her husband, either by divorce or by simply abandoning the marriage. Christians from her church must stand in the gap and provide support and ministry to her and her husband and children. It does not matter if the woman and man are not Christians. They must hear the gospel and be gently encouraged to submit their marriage to God. If they reject and go their own way, the sin is on them, not on Christians. Under no circumstance are believers to encourage people to break their marriage covenants where no ‘erwa’ is present.

    If the husband is an unbeliever and wants to divorce the believing wife, then the sin is on him. She is innocent and can leave. But she must not incite or instigate the divorce if she knows Christ.

    1 Cor 7: 10-16:
    To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

    To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Statement: DO NOT got back to him unless he has faithfully served the Lord in a separate church from you for at least a year and he has made a public confession of his abusive sins so that the community of believers can hold him accountable. God forgives sin, not excuses. Public confession is a good indication of a true repentance and inward change.

    Rebuttal: This is very, very good advice indeed. It is sound, Biblical and full of practical wisdom. Why then can’t this principle be applied to Todd Bentley? Should he not serve faithfully in another position (not pulpit ministry or leadership ministry because such positions are positions of authority, not meant for ‘disqualified’ or ‘rehab’ persons) for at least a year? Should he not make a public confession of his abusive sins towards his wife and children? Should he not make a public confession to his church and his staff and all the people who have supported him with money, time and energy? Shouldn’t the Canadian church, which is his own community of believers, hold him accountable? Why must he run off to America with another woman as his new wife? What about the woman in the affair? Why hasn’t she made a public confession of having an emotional affair with Todd Bentley while being a guest in his house? Has she stood before the Canadian church? Has she stood before Shonnah and repented and asked for forgiveness? As you have said, there are no first-class or second-class citizens in the kingdom of God – the same rule applies for all!

    Ephesians 5: 21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    This is the end of my rebuttal. I apologize for its length. I’ve been as brief as the commentary permitted. I hope you will test your doctrine against what I’ve written and test what I’ve written against the Scriptures. If I’m wrong, please correct me.

    I didn’t reply to every point. But your entire post perfectly illustrates the passionate desire to demand punishment and retribution rather than extending to Todd what Jesus extended to you. You are the illustration of what Pastor Johnson spoke about. Your theology is the theology is the same theology the Pharisees had when they cast the woman caught in the very act of adultery at Jesus’ feet. His response was the response of God to Sin. Go and sin no more. Your past doesn’t matter.

    Somehow, the church has decided a different standard applies to sin after you got saved than to the sin before you got saved. Either the blood of Christ is sufficient for the remission (as in removal, it never happened) for all sin, or it is insufficient for the removal of any sin. God doesn’t make a distinction. Only man does.

  4. Arrew permalink
    March 28, 2009 1:04 pm

    Thank you for engaging in this discussion. I shall try to answer the points you’ve raised. They are good points. I may not have all the answers but I shall do my best with what I know at this point of time.

    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Spirits are not human.

    Rebuttal: You’re right. Not all spirits are human. Some spirits are angelic hosts, some are evil spirits or ‘demons.’ God Himself is spirit. However, all human beings have spirits housed inside their physical bodies. And as such can be tested according to 1 John 4. Further Jesus warns if we persist and delight in sin, we can actually invite evil spirits/demons to dwell inside us. When the children of Israel persisted in great wickedness, God even permitted a lying spirit to use the mouths of the prophets so that the people will fall into disaster and be punished.

    1 John 4:2 says: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

    By the very scripture you are referring to, you are saying that Todd Bentley is from God because he freely acknowledges that Jesus has come in the flesh.

    I have a very good friend who is a practicing astrologer. He freely acknowledges that Jesus came in the flesh, but he is as unsaved as the day is long.

    The reason that a child of God can test spirits is because we have authority over them. Nowhere in scripture does God give men authority over the spirit of another man. That is the essence of witchcraft – the control of another.

    John 4: 24 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

    Romans 8: 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    Romans 8: 15-16 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

    Psalm 31: 5 Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth.

    Ezekiel 26:36 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

    Acts 7: 59-60 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Matthew 12: 43 When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

    Mark 5:2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him.

    Mark 5: 6-11 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won’t torture me!” 8For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!” Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area. A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

    2 Chr 18:18-21Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ ” ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked.” ‘I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Nowhere in scripture are we permitted to judge the hearts of man. Only God can judge the heart. He did not entrust that to the church. You do not cite a single scripture that pertains to the repentance of a brother.

    Rebuttal: We are not called to judge the hearts of men but we are certainly called to judge actions, especially those who profess to be brothers in the Lord. God gave the body of believers the right to punish the sinful action of a believer and He instructed that after the punishment has been mete out (a man who calls himself a Christian and submits himself to the punishment of his church for his sins definitely proves he is a genuine disciple), the church is to comfort him and receive him back into their fellowship.

    No, God did not give them the right to punish this man. What they did was to separate themselves from someone who refused Matthew 18 correction. There was no punitive action taken. As soon as he repented, he was restored into full fellowship with the community.

    2 Cor 2:5-10 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Statement: Scripture never gives us the right to judge the repentance of another. Their repentance isn’t to us if we are not involved in it. Their repentance is to the Father, not to us. Scripture says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. It doesn’t have a caveat about if their repentance is genuine or not. By the way, prove to me Todd had sex with her before they were married.

    Rebuttal: Todd Bentley claims to be a minister of God, an apostle, and a faith healer. Thousands of Christians, including pastors from my church, went to Lakeland to hear him speak and be ministered. We went at great expense. Many congregations pooled hard earned money to send a handful of delegates to Lakeland. Todd Bentley’s divorce and ‘adulterous remarriage’ has shocked, grieved and devastated our congregations. He has laid hands on our pastors and prophesied things. Now our pastors feel duped and defiled. Now they know he was lying about the state of his marriage, the state of his sobriety (all that drunken glory was only just booze-talking), the state of his relationship with his staff, his colleagues, etc. If you think he has merely hurt his wife and children, you’re very mistaken. He claimed to be an apostle and yet behaved worse than the new converts in our church. Our lambs are exercising self-control and he is chasing after his nanny/intern.

    You and your leadership have zero personal relationship with Todd. Statistically, 60% of Christian men are engaged in pornography, which is adultery, and fully 40% of pastors. Statistically, over 50% of Christians are divorced. This means that you have in your congregation practicing adulterers by the definition you are using here. How are you dealing with that issue in your own church? How are you dealing with the plank that is in your own eye (multiple people guilty of the same thing you accuse Todd of in your midst), rather than focusing on the spec (the actions of a single man you have no relationship with)?

    I have no proof he slept with his mistress before they were married but I have proof he ‘lusted’ after her. The proof he lusted after her was that he gave up on his marriage, filed the divorce papers, and married the mistress all within 9 months. The proof is also his letter to Rick Joyner published widely over the Internet last week. In the letter, Todd Bentley wrote to Rick Joyner saying he was afraid he and Jessa Hasbrook would ‘fall into sin’ soon unless they got married straightaway. By ‘fall into sin,’ we understand it to mean ‘have sex.’ This letter reveals Todd Bentley and Jessa Hasbrook were already engaging in lustful thoughts towards each other, could no longer control themselves, and were unwilling to wait for Rick Joyner’s ‘restoration’ programme to begin.

    And Paul in 1 Corinthians gives that as a valid reason to marry. It is better to marry than to burn. How many of the dating people in your congregation pass this test? For that matter, how many in your congregation were actually virgins when they got married?

    Since Todd Bentley and Jessa Hasbrook were already lusting after each other, then there is no choice but to look at what Jesus said about this situation:

    This is fine, as long as you are actively applying this exact same standard to the people in your church that you have relationship with.

    Matthew 5: 27-28 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: ‘Our love for the church and lambs in the flock supersede our mercy towards Todd Bentley.’ SHOW ME THAT ONE IN SCRIPTURE!

    Rebuttal: We have received word many Christians and staff at the Canadian church have stumbled greatly over Todd Bentley. The Lakeland revival was also declared close as a result of his terrible announcement in August last year. In our own church, our sheep are utterly disappointed and hurt, especially with Bill Johnson who has demonstrated no discernment, no courage and no love for purity and holiness in the church. We are fortunate because we have been very cautious over Bill Johnson and Todd Bentley’s preaching and only the senior leadership have extensive exposure to these two men. But some other churches are not so fortunate. A vast number of their sheep have scattered as a result of this abominable event.

    This means you were all focused on someone other than Jesus. Men fall. Men fall daily. That is a part of the reality of the church. If you are hurt because of fall of a man, that means the man was between you and Jesus.

    Lakeland didn’t end because of Todd’s announcement. The nightly meetings continued for months afterwards. They are still holding meetings at Ignited. They are still teaching and preaching healing. They are still leading people to Jesus.

    The guys that were on that platform in Lakeland are currently involved in revival worldwide. Jeff Garvin is eating Iceland alive. Roy Fields, David T. and Kira Mitchell are all in Australia doing gangbusters. The Outpouring in Dudley continues in a training mode.

    The people who were healed in Lakeland are still healed. Those that got saved on the streets of Lakeland were just as saved the day after he made his announcement of his separation. What happened to Todd doesn’t invalidate what God did in Lakeland any more than the betrayal of Judas or the denial of Peter invalidated the ministry of the Lord Jesus.

    And as one who has been a shepherd, I am telling you that if the sheep scattered over this, then it is the fault of the shepherds. They failed to properly tend their flock. My flock was fine over it, because we all lived in the reality of men fail, but God is faithful. If you are anchored to the rock, nothing in this life can shake you.

    Bill Johnson is one of the most discerning men I know. He was not blind to what was up with Todd and he chose to stand with him. He’s still not blind. He’s not happy with the boy, but Todd is a son and you don’t disown your son because of sin. He has demonstrated amazing courage by not feeding Todd to the sharks and standing with him. If you think he has no love for purity, then you have absolutely no idea who he is and what he stands for. The standards that are carved in stone at Bethel are profound.

    However, Jesus didn’t come for the pure. He came for the foul, and that’s who he spent his life with. He poured himself into a sin ravaged people.

    While we want to extend mercy to these so-called apostles who have scattered our lambs, we remember God’s word in:

    Jeremiah 23: 1-4 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD. “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the LORD.

    Luke 17: 1-2 He said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.”

    These that you disparage are still children of the Most High. He loves them, and extends the same grace and mercy to them as he does the rest of his children. The shepherds you refer in the above scriptures were not his children. They did not have the spirit of adoption. There is a huge difference, and using Old Testament judgment against those who are not his sons to say that this is the way God deals with his children is not quite right.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Statement: Peter was restored within 50 days of publicly, repeatedly denying Christ. That’s a go to Hell offense, lose your salvation. Is what Todd did worse?

    Rebuttal: Yes, Todd Bentley is worse. Far worse. So repugnant there is no comparison. Please do not compare him with Peter, I beg you.

    Denying Christ means that he denies you before the father. That’s a bit worse than divorce, don’t you think? Peter at that point in time was not a part of the Kingdom according to Jesus’ own words – if you deny me, I deny you. Jesus restored him fully, and completely. Don’t put Peter on a pedestal. He was just a foul sinner like the rest of us.

    The same is true of David who was guilty of the same sin. God didn’t require him to renounce his polygamy. Nor did he require David to separate from Bathsheba.

    While Peter did deny Jesus on that fateful day in history, Peter did not persist in his sin. Firstly, he wept bitter tears of repentance. Then, he determined never to deny Christ ever again. And he was faithful to the very end because not only did he follow Christ, he followed Christ in his manner of death: persecution and crucified on the cross. This is recorded in the following Scriptures:

    Peter followed after he was restored. Jesus came hunting him. Peter had left. He knew the Lord was alive, but he left the vicinity because he had no hope of being forgiven. He returned to his old life, and Jesus came and called him again. Jesus came to find him, he didn’t seek the Lord for forgiveness.

    Matthew 26: 75 Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: “Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly.

    John 21: 15-19:
    When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
    “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
    Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

    Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?”
    He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
    Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

    The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
    Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

    Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

    Todd Bentley did not repent of his sin of breaking his covenant with his wife. He did not repent of his sin of chasing after the nanny. He did not repent of his sin of abandoning his own children to pursue an adulterous remarriage. He did not repent of his sin of lying while in the pulpit. He did not repent of his sin of claiming God prophesied Shonnah was to be his wife. Instead, he persisted in getting rid of his wife, he persisted in lusting after the nanny, he persisted in persuading others (Rick Joyner, Bill Johnson, Jack Deere) to agree with his sins.

    You do not have all the facts, nor for that matter do I. Shonah left him before he was involved with Jessa. She refused his phone calls and refused to discuss reconciliation. That constitutes abandonment, which is biblical grounds for divorce. Now, the underlying issues between them are between them. Todd may have filed the paperwork, but she did not protest. There is much more to the destruction of this marriage than Todd got involved with Jessa. Jessa was no part of this problem. The problems were there for years. They have been in marriage counseling for years. For whatever reason, they decided to call it a day, and the particulars of that are between Todd and Shonnah.

    Todd has not abandoned his children. He is in constant contact with them. He spends time with them. He and Shonah have a decent enough relationship that they spent a week at Disneyland with the kids this month.

    He dated Jessa while he was separated. This is true. This is also true of millions of other Christians. Have you landed on those in your own congregation who have done this? It happens all the time in this country. I know of Christians who have remarried within months of the death of their mate someone they met while their mate was terminally ill. They didn’t begin to “date” until after the funeral, but they were friends. This stuff goes on all around you all the time in the church. My question to you is are you confronting those in your congregation who are just as guilty, or do you have a double standard?
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: I didn’t reply to every point. But your entire post perfectly illustrates the passionate desire to demand punishment and retribution rather than extending to Todd what Jesus extended to you.

    Rebuttal: Jesus has extended to Todd Bentley the same measure He extends to anyone who professes to teach the Scriptures or be an apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist, elder, deacon, leader.

    Romans 2: 19- 23 If you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth — you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

    Luke 12: 47-48 That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

    Hebrews 12: 4-11:
    In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”

    Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: You are the illustration of what Pastor Johnson spoke about. Your theology is the theology is the same theology the Pharisees had when they cast the woman caught in the very act of adultery at Jesus’ feet. His response was the response of God to Sin. Go and sin no more.

    Rebuttal: YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: GO AND SIN NO MORE. Why is Todd Bentley still sinning after coming to know Christ, after purporting to be appointed an apostle, after apparently having such a successful healing ministry, after proclaiming so many ‘prophecies,’ after converting so many followers? A man of God divorcing his wife and marrying his nanny is surely a sin!

    And you sin every single day. Just like the rest of us. Or are calling scripture a liar? There are no gradients of sin in scripture. There is sin and there is not sin. Jesus is the ONLY one who ever lived in the not sin camp. You have set yourself up as a teacher in these posts, so you have placed yourself under the same standard you profess to hold Todd to. How are you faring against the sinless perfection you are demanding?

    Romans 8: 7-8 The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Your past doesn’t matter.

    Rebuttal: When we come to know Christ, repent of our sins and accept Him as our Saviour and Master, all our sins are buried at the Cross. We will no longer be condemned to Hell when we die. John 3:16.

    However, God’s forgiveness of our sins in eternity, whether past or present or future, does not mean we will not suffer the consequences of our sins while on earth.

    If I steal a $50,000 from the bank tomorrow, guess what my senior pastor is going to tell me? Repent, confess, return the money, apologize and submit myself to the local police station. What if I murdered a little kid in the neighbourhood or set fire to my rival’s shop? Same thing. Repent, confess, restore, apologize, submit to the law and accept punishment. Does it matter if I committed these crimes in the past, before I was a Christian? The answer is ‘no.’ Justice must be fulfilled.

    God is holy and His holiness demands justice on this earth. His justice and mercy is balanced. And He empowers those in authority both in the church and in the government to mete out His justice and mercy.

    That is how we come to have church disciplinary procedures and why we have governments. Sins become encoded in our laws (criminal and civil) and forms of punishment are prescribed. We can be fined/jailed/whipped/ sentenced to death for offences ranging from misdemeanours to serious crimes. A brother can repent of (God forbid!) rape, murder, theft, kidnapping, molestation, arson, paedophilia but he must still go to jail! Anyone who calls himself a Christian and doesn’t agree with this is self-deluded. He is not righteous in Christ but self-righteous: a danger and a great evil to society.

    Romans 13: 1-5 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Somehow, the church has decided a different standard applies to sin after you got saved than to the sin before you got saved.

    Rebuttal: But of course! Sinners sin! They love sin, they wallow in sin, they take pride in sin, they enjoy sin, they promote sin, they applaud others who sin! They’re ignorant of what sin is and what sin does. Christians, however, hate sin, they flee from sin, they weep over sin, they want to have nothing to do with sin. Why? Christians understand sin separates them from fellowship with God, sin destroys the lives of people around them, sin condemns everyone to hell, sin sent Jesus Christ to the Cross even though He was completely innocent, sin has painful consequences on earth. So when you’re saved, when you’re a child of God, and you understand all this, why wouldn’t you apply different standards to it?

    You see, we still sin. As long as we are in the flesh, we will continue to sin. 1 John 1: 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

    Paul said that if you fail in one point, you have failed in all points. There is no sin that worse than another. It’s all sin. That’s why every one of us needs a savior.

    When we begin to see the sin of others as worse than ours, or make certain sins worse than others, then we have become Pharisees and have embraced a self-righteous, Religious Spirit. We point the finger at others and fail to see our own evil for what it truly is.

    The mark, according to Jesus, of someone who is truly his disciple is that we have love for one another. John proved he was Jesus’ disciple because he stuck with Peter when Peter fell. He loved Peter as his brother even though he denied Christ. John, the only one of them who was at the foot of the cross, stuck with the one who denied the Lord.

    1 John 4: 19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

    I love Todd Bentley. I am not thrilled with the choices he has made, but I know that there is forgiveness and restoration for him because Christ died for the ungodly. Jesus is faithful. He began a good work in Todd and he is faithful to see it through to completion. The true testimony of grace is that it is unmerited. Todd doesn’t deserve restoration any more than the rest of us do. He doesn’t even at this point know all the issues that he needs to repent of. That is what this restoration process is all about. He’s a broken man with deep wounds. God has finally backed him into a place where all that woundedness is exposed and he can find the healing he so desperately needs.

    Has he sinned? Yes. Just like we have. Has he made bad choices? Yes. Just like we have. But Paul says that ALL THINGS work together for the good of them that love God who are called according to his purpose.

    Jesus in John 12:47 made his stand clear: “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.”

    If I’m a child and don’t understand what a knife is and I cut someone, surely you will forgive me. But when I’m 40 years old and I take a knife and stab you in the eye, causing you permanent blindness, will you accept my explanation that ‘I was just mucking about, having a bit of fun with the knife, and didn’t mean to put out your eye?’ Would you think it was all right for an adult, who having realized the danger of sharp weapons, to still behave in a reckless manner with these sharp weapons? Wouldn’t you suspect there’s something wrong with such an adult and he ought to be either jailed or hospitalised?

    Romans 6: 1-3 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death?

    Romans 6: 15-18 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Statement: Either the blood of Christ is sufficient for the remission (as in removal, it never happened) for all sin, or it is insufficient for the removal of any sin. God doesn’t make a distinction. Only man does.

    Question: What is your understanding of remission of sin? Can you define it? What have you been taught about this?

    I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe in a limited atonement. The blood of Christ fully satisfied every legal requirement the Father had regarding sin. Jesus purchased full pardon and he is able to share that pardon with those who are in Him. We are not only cleansed from all sin (all sin – past, present, future) but we are justified (put in right standing) and made beneficiaries of the Covenant the Son has with the Father. We have no covenant with the Father because we are unable to fulfill the requirements of a covenant relationship with the Father. The Son has a covenant with the Father on behalf of man, and he chooses to bestow those covenant blessings on those who are in him. Jesus Christ has paid in full the debt of sin. Jesus made clear that the judgment at the end of the age would not be about sin, but about what we did with his words.

    What we have is adoption, not a covenant. We are not in a legal contract, but rather we are the children of the Father and joint heirs with Christ. I don’t seen in scripture where Paul says you can be unadopted.

    The judgment seat of Christ is not a pass/fail exam on whether we get in heaven or not. Only the followers of Christ will be at that judgment. There our deeds will be weighed and the motives of our hearts exposed. Those are what will determine our eternal rewards and our eternal standing in heaven.

    As I have said in other places, I know that Jessa has repented of the part she played in this, whatever that was. As far as the Father is concerned, it is as if she never sinned because scripture says he casts our sin into the sea of forgetfulness. As far as He is concerned, she is his beloved child. What he sees is people calling his daughter foul names and saying horrendous things about her. I have been through this and I have seen the Father step in and defend me. I am telling you, you do not want to be on the receiving end of that. It is not pretty.

  5. Naxus permalink
    April 7, 2009 9:35 pm

    You will know “Them” by their fruit! Todd is a Tare of great proportions. To deny this either you are severely deceived or you are a deceiver. As the the Word says he is a “Worker of Iniquity”!

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 7, 2009 10:00 pm

      No, Naxus, he’s a sinner saved by grace like the rest of us. He’s led over a million people to Christ, and that was before Lakeland ever started. God TV’s broadcasts of the Lakeland Outpouring were by hundreds of thousands, and thousands more came to Christ. Jeff Lewis and his teams led hundreds to the Lord on the streets of Lakeland. Right now 3 of the players from Lakeland are in Australia and they have seen hundreds saved in this past month.

      Todd knows he’s got problems, and he submitted to the care of a fellowship to help him.

  6. Naxus permalink
    April 7, 2009 10:18 pm

    Problems? like being a convicted pedophile and supposedly a former Satantist just like Pat King is a former Witch? Dont forget the kicking in the face of a little old lady because Jesus made him do it. Now isnt that a kick in the pants. If you are with him then you are against Him. If so, are you left hand or right hand? P.S. i used to date a female Witch who is a Satanist. Psalms 58:Do you indeed speak righteousness, O gods?
    Do you judge uprightly, O sons of men?
    2 No, in heart you work unrighteousness;
    On earth you weigh out the violence of your hands.
    3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
    These who speak lies go astray from birth.
    4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent Luke 13:20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

    22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 7, 2009 10:45 pm

      Todd was a juvenile of about 15 or so when the incident you mention took place, and that happened years before he was saved. The little old lady he kicked at was not hurt. His boot never connected. Smith WIgglesworth frequently punched people in the gut and they got healed. Granted, not something I have done, but I’ve never had the Holy Spirit tell me to either. I tend to operate more in deliverance than healing, and have had far too many violent encounters with demons, but that’s another story.

      Patricia King was a spiritual seeker like so many caught in the New Age are. She is particularly effective in reaching that group because she gets what they’re looking for. She is a dedicated street evangelist, and nothing brings her more joy than seeing someone come into relationship with Jesus. She’s an amazing woman. She is ethical in her business dealings in the ministry, and she maintains the highest standards of personal integrity.

      So you’re saying that these people who have consistently led large numbers of people to Jesus (Todd saw over a million conversions before he was 30) are demonic. Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand and that Satan cannot cast out Satan. Your accusations about them are all things from their before conversion past.

      I have personally been around these guys and have seen the passion they have for the Lord and the passion they have to see people come to Him. And these guys are tremendous servants. When I was in Lakeland, Todd was still praying for people at 1 and 2 in the morning. I heard stories there about him praying for people at Steak and Shake (from the Steak and Shake staff) and people being laid out in the floor of the restaurant. I met a woman in Phoenix who was a waitress who waited on Patricia and her team one night after a meeting. They ministered to her prophetically and gave her accurate words about her life to show her that Jesus was concerned about what she faced, and when they left, they left her a $400 tip. Needless to say, this waitress was totally open to the gospel after that. She told me she had finally seen what Christians were supposed to be like.

      You may disagree with them theologically and that’s fine. I personally believe that Calvinism is a demonic deception, but that doesn’t mean my reformed brothers aren’t saved. And I know that cessationism is a lie from the pit of hell to rob God’s people of their new birthright, but that doesn’t mean I don’t embrace my Southern Baptist friends as believers. But theology is not a reason to break fellowship. Being around people you disagree with forces you to examine the finer points of your belief system, and if your belief system isn’t continually growing and changing, then you’ve lost your dynamic relationship with the Holy Spirit some where. There is no way the finite human mind can fully grasp the mysteries of the gospel, and we should be continually growing in our understanding, just are we are continually growing in our relationship with Him.

  7. Naxus permalink
    April 8, 2009 9:29 pm

    Lets not forget Todd Bentleys spring board Rick Joyner, a Knight of Malta. Nuff said. Birds of a feather perform witchcraft together. Anyone who cant discern that Todd is demon possessed in Sid Roths interview of him is blind and deceived. I hope you are deceived dear Sister Evangelist because if your not then your one of them, are you? By their fruits you will know them,” not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter Heaven, I will turn to them and say to them depart from Me I never knew you you Workers of Iniquity[The Tares the Angels of the Lord Most High will harvest soon, very soon] !” You guys enjoy your wealth and filthy lifestyles and your magic for soon you will not be able to.

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 8, 2009 10:39 pm

      I am perfectly happy to be identified with people who have led over a million people to Jesus, who are actively helping women and children to leave the sex trade and who are providing food, shelter and a godly environment for orphaned children. Yes, their fruits speak loudly for them, for as James says, they are showing their faith by their deeds.

      Patricia is active in Thailand buying children out of the sex trade and giving them homes. She ministers to the prostitutes there. She is paying the bills on five orphanages that Iris Ministries runs (it may be more now). She and her ministry team are actively ministering on the streets of Phoenix and reaching out to the homeless and abused.

      Todd’s ministry started an orphanage in Uganda called the Jesus Village where they are providing homes for child solders who have escaped that life. He’s led over a million people to Jesus. I know people who have received healing through his ministry. He has been effective in reaching Muslims, as has Heidi Baker.

      Rick Joyner is actively providing help in disasters. They ministered for months in New Orleans after Katrina and helped with the rebuilding there. The whole Knights of Malta thing has nothing to do with secret orders. The part of the Order of St. John he is a part of doesn’t do secret rituals. They are, however guardians of a heritage of standing against radical Islam, which is something the church needs to learn a lot more about. Islam is a threat we have ignored for far too long.

      It is so sad that people in the Body of Christ call everything supernatural demonic, especially when they’ve never met the people they are accusing personally or even been in their meetings.

  8. Naxus permalink
    April 9, 2009 4:47 am

    Well dear in order for a Wolf to be excepted into the fold they must wear wool Priestley garments to fool the sheep in order to devour the flock of God that He bought with His own blood. Lets reject Jude the Lords half brother and ignore his dire warnings. I think not! Ever read Jude? Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: 2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.

    17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 9, 2009 6:10 am

      But you see, I see you in the role of the mocker described, because you mock the Holy Spirit and believe every evil report without even having had personal contact with any of these people.

      I have been in and out of Morningstar and had a few conversations with Rick Joyner for 20 years. I worked briefly with Patricia King’s ministry. I have been in meetings with Todd Bentley and have had a few exchanges with him. Not that any of these people would ever remember who I am, but I’ve at least had contact, seen what goes on up close.

      You are bringing accusations against people you have no relationship with, and have not bothered to verify your information. How do I know that? Because I know that at least some of what you are saying is false. Therefore, I doubt seriously that you either verified any of it or have discussed your concerns with anyone you are accusing. And that is sin.

      Take the plan out of your eye, and then you can talk about the splinters in the eyes of your brothers.

  9. Naxus permalink
    April 10, 2009 12:50 am

    I have one very important relationship that is very important and that is with the Lord Himself. Pat King and Todd Bentley and such have in fact blasphemed the Holy Spirit. They never were saved never will be. When He Spoke on this matter it was to the Tares of His time the ones He called the sons of Hell, yes those in ministry who scorned the Power there of. They never were saved they never did get saved. Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 10, 2009 9:04 am

      Dude, you are treading on thin ice. You are attributing the works of the Spirit to Satan, and that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Satan does not lead people to Jesus ever. Since I know people who have gotten saved under these ministries and are serving God in other churches, you have just done that.

      Rick, Patricia and Todd are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I see more of the actual character of Christ in them, in spite of sin in some cases, than you have demonstrated since you started posting here. You are wrong in your judgments. You have no relationship with these people, and you have no position in the body of Christ. Therefore, I doubt seriously your judgments are based on discernment, but rather are the product of a self-righteous critical spirit. God doesn’t generally tell people the secrets of the heart of others unless they are in a position to bring correction or have a heart for intercession.

      You have made a lot of general accusations. Let’s hear some specifics. Tell me what errors of foundational doctrine that these people hold.

      Patricia does one of the very best teachings I have ever heard on covenant in the Glory School. What’s wrong with it?

      Todd has taught many to come into relationship with the Holy Spirit. What’s erroneous in that teaching?

      Rick has taught that Galatians 2:20 is one of the foundations that has to be in place before one can gain lasting victory over the enemy. What’s wrong with that?

  10. Naxus permalink
    April 10, 2009 12:56 am

    St John asking his fellow servant Judas, ‘are you inwardly a devil in disguise? Judas to John ‘no way! Jose, i cast out demons i heal the sick, i am a child of the King!’

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 10, 2009 9:05 am

      Every one of the disciples asked Jesus, Is it I? when he said one of them would betray him.

  11. Naxus permalink
    April 11, 2009 1:56 am

    Dudette, i said what i said. And i explained why in detail. Either i am an honest soul or a ravening liar pick one and go with it. Lets see now, do i encourage witchcraft in the church like Pat does? No ! Do i physically assault children of the Lord in the house that bares His name, like Todd does? No! Do i belong to an occult secret society like Rick Joyner does? No! Miriam’s website is great to research these bed fellows, that i will concede.

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 11, 2009 9:40 am

      Miriam posts biased research from others. She doesn’t get the information from the people she’s slamming. I do. I was a history major and a Christianity major in college. I get my information from primary sources, not third hand on a website.

      You are welcome to prove your point, but not by using anything from her site. Do your own research. Talk to Patricia or Todd or RIck. Find out what they really believe, not what Miriam says they believe.

      Here’s a bit of what Joyner says about the Order of St. John that he is a part of:

      Q. Is The OSJ connected to the Masons?

      No. Neither are there any secret vows or rituals in the OSJ. The OSJ is a true Christian order, and the vows for knighthood are commitments to be servants of Christ and no other god, as well as to Christian truth and principles. The eight pointed Maltese Cross was designed to represent the eight beatitudes of Christ which the knight was to wear on his heart at all times as a constant reminder of what was to be in his heart.

      Because some believe that the origin of the Masons was the Knights Templer (Knights of the Temple), which also had its origin in the crusades at about the same time as the OSJ as well as a number of other orders, some have tried to assert that the Masons and OSJ are related. Actually, when the Templer knights were excommunicated for their secret vows and rituals that were considered to be witchcraft, they believed that the OSJ was behind their debacle, and some consider the OSJ to be the greatest enemy of the Masons to this day. However, most Masons, and members of the OSJ, are oblivious to this, as well as much of the rest of their history. I have also heard that in some countries Masons and the OSJ do work together for charitable causes that both are committed to, such as hospitals and medical relief.

      Some have also concluded that they are related because the head of each is called a Grand Master. These are simply titles that were left over from the Middle Ages, and such guilt by random association is a symptom of paranoia which may be an even greater danger in the future than any wayward order. Should Christians give up their title as priests to the Lord because there are satanic priests? We don=t throw away our real money because someone finds a counterfeit, neither should we give up our vocabulary just because the enemy decides to use it.

      Also, even though the majority of Masons are only aware of three degrees (Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master Mason) there is a secret society within some Masonic groups that recognize thirty-three degrees. Each of these degrees has a title, and the title given to the twenty-seventh degree is “Knight of Malta.” Some assert that this proves there is a relationship between them, but they also use other Christian titles for some of these degrees, none of which do I believe relate to the Christian use of it. I do not think that we should give up any of them just because some Masons use them.

      As a Christian I am deeply alarmed by everything I have studied about the Masons. I do not know how any Christian can make the basic vow required for entry to the Masons. I have not, nor would I ever be a part of any secret society, or one that has secret rituals. The OSJ has neither. They do everything in the light, all of its vows and rituals are Christian, and are commitments to basic Christian doctrine.

      There are some who claim to be the true OSJ that do at least have teachings that I believe to be in conflict with basic Christian truth, but we also have groups that claim to be the true Christian church that do as well. Should Christians stop calling themselves the church because some who are not true Christians call themselves the church? Again, I do not intend to let those with such flawed reasoning dictate what I do or do not do, as I am committed to walking by faith, not by fear.

      The Order of St. John fought the onslaught of Islam in its day, and that is the picture Joyner has of what faces the church. Maybe we need to look at Christians who successfully fought radical Islam in their day for some insight in fighting in our day.

  12. Naxus permalink
    April 11, 2009 2:03 am

    You keep selling TB PK and RJ to me and the readers, this doesnt work with me. Because Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. JESUS DIDNT DENY THAT THEY PROPHESIED AND CAST OUT DEVILS AND DID MANY WONDERFUL WORKS IN HIS NAME. HE DID SAY THAT HE NEVER KNEW THEM AND THAT THEY WERE WORKERS OF INIQUITY! Workers get paid by employers.

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 11, 2009 9:47 am

      Jesus said that all men would know you as his disciple because of the love you have for one another. I have never heard Patricia, Rick or Todd rail on the doctrine police the way you abuse them. I have seen them do amazing acts of charity and preach the gospel all over the world. I short, by their actions, I see them walking in obedience to the major commands of Jesus Christ. James says this his faith was visible by the works he did.

      You are calling people who have made public profession of their faith in Jesus Christ and have consistently backed that profession by their actions. Yes, Todd sinned, just like every single one of us has, and he has publicly repented for his actions. These guys don’t use the miraculous as their authentication, but their actions. Patricia and Todd share a love of evangelism. They both have consistently taken the gospel outside the four walls since they were saved. Rick is devoted to seeing the Body of Christ come to maturity.

      But I asked you some specific questions about their teaching that you did not answer. Could it be that you have never read their teachings for yourself and only go by what others have said about them?

  13. Naxus permalink
    April 11, 2009 2:06 am

    Do you want me to prove my points by linking research material on PK, TB and RJ that Miriam has abundantly on her web site?

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 11, 2009 9:48 am

      I will without hesitation delete any links to her site.

  14. Naxus permalink
    April 11, 2009 2:11 pm

    Delete her links? what are you afraid of?

    • rahabsplace permalink*
      April 12, 2009 2:34 pm

      She is banned from this blog for her ungodly attitude, and I will not let her trash be promoted here. Much of what she has posted is inaccurate or motivated by hatred and I will not be a part of it.

  15. April 12, 2009 7:43 am

    I think the Holy Spirit can look after himself don’t you..just look at Annanias and Sapphira..if he hasn’t dropped Todd dead,then He’s still got a use for him..like I said somewhere else..how about iraq and Afghanistan,and the rest of us get on with our jobs of edifying one another and make ready for the Lord’s return.Dr.Ed,Holy Spirit’s workshop

  16. Naxus permalink
    April 13, 2009 6:38 am

    Its not the Holy Spirit i worry about its about the sheep who are being butchered that i worry about. Its the same passion i share with Jude.

Trackbacks

  1. Posts about Todd Bentley as of March 27, 2009 | PRAYtheREVOLUTION
  2. Posts about Todd Bentley as of April 1, 2009 | PRAYtheREVOLUTION

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

%d bloggers like this: