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Great Florida Outpouring – Todd Bentley, You Heretic, You!

June 9, 2008
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The contradictions of the Doctrine Police never cease to amaze me. I was reading some of the more rabid posts about Todd Bentley today and thought, “Jesus, how can people who claim to love you be so vicious toward other members of your body?”

The ones that really crack me up are the ones where the blogger goes off on Todd for his visions or prophetic experiences where he received some form of revelation or other that isn’t contained in scripture, such as a name of an angel or a vision of the Ministry of Finance in heaven. They will proceed to trounce this as demonic because it is not in the Bible. But then, they will relate how they had a dream that they KNOW is from the Lord showing them the blackness of Todd’s heart or the wrongness of his motivation or how he is a charlatan. Their revelation is then offered as further proof of Todd’s iniquity.

Does anyone else see a problem with this behavior?

The attitude of “your revelation is wrong, but mine is spot on” really bothers me. In the scenario above, both revelations are extra-biblical. There is no place in scripture where the motives of Todd Bentley are spoken of. And I really don’t think there is any place in scripture that gives Christians leave to air their “revelations” about the character and motives of their brothers publicly. We are to take our concerns to our brother, then go back with witnesses and finally to bring it before the church. Bringing matters before the church involves bringing it before the governmental structure that the one in error belongs to. There is also an implication that those bringing the correction are part of the same body. In other words, there can be no correction where there is no relationship.

It seems to me that the heart of the Lord and the preponderance of scripture is that God’s desire is for healing and transformation in the lives of individuals rather than judgment and condemnation. He desires for His children to be transformed into the image of Jesus. Jesus laid his life down for the flock and so should we.

I have seen every kind of objection to what is happening in Lakeland on the internet. Some of it is absolutely hilarious. There are people who object to the fact that worship sometimes goes on for 2 1/2 hours. They say it is setting the stage for mass hypnosis. Never mind the fact that King David established 24/7 worship in tabernacle. These same people also complain that the name of Jesus is never involved in the meetings. Of course not. We just spend 2 1/2 hours contemplating air.

Worship, in the context of “River” people, follows the definition John Wimber gave of worship in the Vineyard. True worship is TO Jesus, not about Jesus. It is the difference between saying, “God is awesome,” and “You are an awesome God.” Worship, in this context, is an intimate event where we pour our love out to Jesus. Jesus IS the focus of true worship. Roy Fields recently said, “We are desperate, passionate, raging lunatics for God.” I think that is a really fair assessment of worship.

One of the results of the powerlessness of the Western church is that we no longer do the stuff, we just talk about when Jesus did the stuff. The church has no expectation of the sick being healed, the possessed being delivered or the dead being raised. We no longer do those things, we just talk about when Jesus did those things. We don’t have a context of what to do when the stuff is being done around us (kudos to John Wimber from whom I first heard the term “Doin’ the Stuff” in reference to doing the works of Jesus.)

Jesus didn’t just talk about the Kingdom of God, he demonstrated it to the people.

People object to the fact that Todd doesn’t talk about Jesus and what Jesus did. He doesn’t do 3 point sermons. He’s too busy encouraging people to do the stuff to talk about when the stuff used to be done. He is demonstrating the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God, scripture says, is not a matter of words but of a demonstration of the power of God. That is because the Kingdom is supposed to be a demonstration of the defeat of satan in this world. The Kingdom is ALWAYS superior to the rule of satan. 1 Johns says that Jesus was made manifest to destroy the works of the devil. When he returned to heaven, he left that mandate with his church. The works of satan are poverty, sickness, disease. The Kingdom brings provision, healing and deliverance.

And I have news for the Doctrine Police: Todd Bentley’s motives do not matter. You think he is evil to the bone, a charlatan, a liar and out to skin the flock. Even if he is, that doesn’t matter.

Philippians 1:17-19:

17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[ 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

I personally do not believe Todd is in this for the money. Revivals are a pain in the neck. Conferences are a lot easier to do and pay well. Todd has preached 50 some odd nights since 4/2/08. That is a lot of work. It is not easy to run 6 hours or more a night under tv lights, especially in Florida in the summer with little air conditioning. But even if it was just about the money, the scripture above says it doesn’t matter. As long as Christ is being preached, that is what is important.

And Christ is being preached. People are coming to Jesus daily, both in the meetings and on the streets. I have heard it said that they are not really getting saved and all sorts of bogus garbage. The people getting saved in Lakeland are just as saved and have just as much chance of growing in Christ as if they had been saved in a Billy Graham crusade. Billy, in case you were unaware, only has a 5% retention rate. Only 5% of those converted under his ministry continue on to become mature Christians.

I don’t know how many have claimed to have been born again in Lakeland. I know that in one 48 hour period of time, teams reported leading 510 people to Jesus on the streets. One girl I talked to on May 2nd, said that she had led over 1,000 people to Jesus. I believe her because I have never seen a city where people were so open to the gospel.

I actually feel sorry for the Doctrine Police. They are straining gnats and swallowing camels. They freak out about things that really don’t matter and are missing what God is doing in this hour. God will always meet with desperate, hungry people; people who want him more than anything and he doesn’t care about the vessel he uses to reach them. I think that is what the doctrine police are missing. They aren’t desperate and hungry for the person and presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. They are letting their desire for doctrinal purity block their relationship with the Lord, not realizing that it is our intimacy with Jesus that purifies our understanding of the Kingdom of God. Doctrine has never and will never produce intimacy with the Lord, but intimacy with Jesus and fellowship with the Holy Spirit will produce doctrinal purity.

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55 Comments leave one →
  1. June 9, 2008 1:48 pm

    I agree with some of your statements. I think that many of Todd’s detractors are straining gnats, as you say. I have no problem with 2 1/2 hours of worship or Todd’s tattoos or piercings.

    But, let me paint a scenario for you. I am not going to ask you to buy into this, but just put yourself into the shoes of one that does…for a moment.

    What if none of these healings are real? What if all of these people that have cancer and are crippled or have whatever only feel better for a short while at the meeting. What if they go on home with their wheelchairs or their cancer progresses. This we have seen before. There are plenty of exposes on famous faith healers that show many cases just like this. Would it matter if this were the case?

    What about the “manifestations” of the spirit. What if it were nothing more than psychological manifestations that comes from the combination of emptying your mind and the crowd and all of that. These same things happen in eastern religions.

    You can look up Kundalini and find the shaking and the laughter and the crying and the animal noises – heck even the “left leg anointing” someone mentioned in Toronto.

    What if the people at these meetings – most are from out of town – are trading their christianity for some sideshow trick that people of all sorts of “religions” have been doing for thousands of years. What if they lost focus on Christ and instead became “self-hypnosis” junkies.

    If one sincerely believed that, what should they do? Should they say nothing? Should they say “it is not my place to judge”?

    Again, I am not asking you to personally believe this scenario….but, put yourself in my shoes.

    J

  2. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 9, 2008 2:12 pm

    I am not of the camp that says check your brain at the door. I am of the camp that says submit your mind to be renewed by the washing of the word and learn to see through the discernment of the Holy Spirit.

    Legitimate, thoughtful concerns are always needed in the body of Christ.

    I went to Lakeland and met people who were healed. I have been around Todd’s meetings since 2004 and have seen consistent fruit in his ministry and life.

    I tend to believe people who say, “I got healed last week. I went to the doctor this week and here is the lab report showing I no longer have Hepatitis C,” or whatever they had.

    You have to remember that every demonic manifestation is caused by a demon that was once an angel. Satan has no power to create within himself, just like he has no life within himself. All the devil and his angels can do is corrupt and pervert what God originally gifted them with.

    Heaven is filled with laughter. Scripture talks of the joy of the Lord and says that God laughs at his enemies. Laughter belongs to the Kingdom of God.

    It is like rainbows. The rainbow is the symbol of the New Age movement. Long before that, however, it was the symbol of the everlasting covenant God made with man not to destroy the earth again by water. He likes rainbows so much, there is one above his throne. The rainbow belonged to God long before the devil corrupted it.

    The Holy Spirit was sent to lead us into truth, because he is the Spirit of Truth. I trust him to lead me more than I trust satan to deceive me.

    I really have problems believing that God would allow satan to give his children poison when they are crying out to the Lord for more of his presence, more of his life in them and more of his healing to restore them. Scripture says he will not do it. He will not give us a stone when we ask for bread. And Jesus said that it was not right for him to give the children’s bread to dogs when the Syrophoenician woman asked for healing for her daughter. Healing is the children’s bread. When we are asking for healing in Jesus’ name, he is not going to give us a counterfeit.

  3. caron123 permalink
    June 9, 2008 2:24 pm

    The scenario painted by another poster is an EXCELLENT one and needs to be seriously considered…

    Please see: http://www.justinpeters.org and click on “demo.”

    Bless you,

    Caron

  4. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 9, 2008 3:07 pm

    I approved this comment giving Justing Peter’s website for one reason only: to be able to comment back.

    This man is a product of SWBTS and is as such a confirmed cessationist. His seminar is entitled a Call for Discernment and as such that is misleading at best.

    Discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit. As a cessationist, he no longer believes these gifts are given to the church; therefore, he cannot exercise biblical discernment as it is no longer available in his theological grid.

    What he is calling discernment is simply exegesis through a cessationist grid.

    As a cessationist, he is at a starting point of theological inaccuracy, so any conclusions that he draws will be theologically flawed.

  5. BWA permalink
    June 9, 2008 4:15 pm

    The enemy is getting so much fun out of this whole thing because our reactions are enabling him to widen and deepen the grand canyon that exists between evangelicals and charismatics. CS Lewis was so right in saying that the enemy sends evil into the world in opposite pairs. We see one extreme and react to it by going to the other extreme which is just as bad.
    Rahab I am not accusing you of this but I do know that there are many in the renewal camp that are reacting to the extremes of the fundamentalists and by doing so are falling into the opposite danger of embracing all things and not excercising any discernment. You are strong in the word because of your back ground but many others do not have the same strength and are going to get burnt. I have been a charismatic since 1972 and this to me has always been one of the weaknesses of the charismatics. Somehow we have to move in the direction of our evangelical brothers and gain a stronger understanding of the word without sacrificing our hunger for the presence and power of the Lord. The evangelicals have to come our way to embrace god’s presence and power without losing their love for the word.
    I am sure the Lord weeps when he sees his children attacking or ignoring one another because we don’t know how to love one another.
    I have said this before that when you open the window for the Dove to come in the crows and magpies also come in and we need to be cognizant of this. I have read blogs where people say that they know of people going to LakeLand and leaving more oppressed of the enemy rather than being freer. Some of these claims may be completely false. But if they are true then does this mean Lakeland is of the devil? After healing Jesus warned one individual that he needed to stop sinning or something worse would come on him. He also spoke of the house being swept clean and the enemy returning with 7 more worse than himself. I think we are quite ignorant of spiritual dynamics and do not understand that the enemy can do nasty things in the very presence of God. Look at Judas how was he able to make an agreement with the devil in the very presence of Jesus! Or what about Peter denying that Jesus would go to the cross and Jesus rebuked satan for speaking through Peter. What about Ananias and Sapphira that were filled with satan to lie to Peter and this happened in the midst of a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit! In the Book Of Job we read of Satan being able to come into the presence of the Lord. If this is so then he can show up at Lakeland this is where we have to excercise discernment, rather than throw out the baby with the bathwater. Evangelicals are terrified of the spiritual world so they operate out of fear. Charismatics don’t seem to have this kind of fear but display a lot of ignorance and seem to accept anything that comes along. I think we need a healthy dose of caution (not unbelief)to check things out (not to put out the fire of God) In saying this I may sound like a heresy hunter but I am not. I want God’s presence and power in my life and I want it in the church because presently we are not getting the job done. I pray that I will be around long enough to be able to teach the next generation all the things I have learned so they do not have to make the same mistakes my generation has made.
    Blessings
    BWA

  6. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 9, 2008 5:00 pm

    I agree to some extent, BWA. The problem, however, is that those in the evangelical camp who hold to cessationist theology have to come to grips with the fact that they are in theological error. There is no compromise possible on this point.

    By the way, the Vineyard sees itself as evangelical. They were, when I was a part of that movement, officially calling themselves spirit-filled evangelicals. Evangelical does not necessarily mean cessationist.

    Now, for those who understand that spiritual gifts still exist, yes there are issues that either need to be worked out or all parties need to come to the conclusion that the issue is a non-essential and agree to disagree.

    I used to think that charity was possible between the camps of cessationist and those who believe the gifts still exist. I no longer believe that. To tolerate as a school of different thought those who believe that people who believe in the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are deceived, intellectually defective or demonically empowered is to deny our salvation. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

  7. June 9, 2008 7:06 pm

    I got spammed a bunch of times by Justin Peters also. I just delete his comments.

    Great post. It absolutely dumbfounds me when Christians caution people not to get their hopes up about healing in case they don’t get healed. I don’t understand why they don’t just come out of the closet and admit that they are deists and that they don’t really believe that God would get involved directly in people’s lives.

  8. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 9, 2008 8:45 pm

    Great observation, Carl! Deism is making a huge comeback in the form of “doctrinal purity.”

    In case you don’t know what deism is, it is the belief that God created the universe and is content to let it run its course, rather like a watchmaker winding a clock and letting it tick.

  9. takunwaters permalink
    June 9, 2008 10:52 pm

    Thank you. I think your post highlighted some things that often get overlooked and breathes some clarity into this minefield.

  10. June 10, 2008 8:10 am

    Just because you question a particular movement does not make you a deist. We have seen lots of these “spectacular” movements and with a closer look NOT ONE healing can be found documented.

    It is not just that they have doctrinal problems – and I would admit that cessacionism (sp?) is not doctrinally strong. It is that they invoke people like William Branham who said that: the trinity was of the devil and that the first bible was written in the zodiac and….it goes on.

    And, no by the way, I would not take someone’s word for it who said they were healed of Hepatitis C and have the lab reports. First, most lab reports have false negatives about 2-5% of the time. So if 10,000 people were prayed for and “healed” and then got blood tests, 200-500 people would get false negative tests and not actually be healed. Also, people greatly misinterpret and misremember what their doctor tells them.

    This entire movement has yet to show ONE air-tight healing.

    Obviously the Creator of the universe can heal. That does not mean that everytime someone says he did, he did. When they use occultic techniques and get occultic results….I don’t understand why that is compelling. I am not a deist. I am not a cesationist (however you spell it 🙂 ). I am not afraid of real manifestations of God.

    I just, honestly, don’t find any of these claims to be compelling…at all. However, I will support you 100% that some of the attacks need to change their tune. We evangelicals need to watch how we engage.

    BTW,I am not Justin Peters or anyone else even remotely known in Christendom. I am just a guy who grew up in the Vineyard movement who saw it before and after Kansas City. I love my brother, John Wimber…even if I don’t completely agree with him.

    I have a big problem with the Elijah List crowd. My interest in this is mainly due to my parents and younger sister’s involvement with this movement. They are hooked and I am grieved.

    J

  11. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 10, 2008 9:21 am

    I have been reading the Gospel of John this week. One of the themes that is repeated over and over in that book is that no man has ever opened the eyes of one born blind unless he is from God. Satan cannot raise the dead because life is not in him.

    If you look at this post:
    https://rahabsplace.wordpress.com/2008/05/22/this-is-one-of-the-resurrections/
    This is the story of the woman from West Virginia who was brain dead for 17 hours, they took her off life support, she had no pulse or blood pressure and then she asked for her son. The video is from the AP, who covered the story. It’s pretty well documented.

    Now, I have posted elsewhere on this blog about one of the girls in the church I lead praying for her Grandmother over the phone and Granny’s hearing being restored. Granny no longer has to use her hearing aids. This is someone that I have known for 8 years, so I know the condition. Granny has told everyone in her Baptist church and they don’t know what to think.

    I don’t think it is wrong to be skeptical, the the difference is the motivation of the heart. The Bereans were considered more noble because they searched the scripture to see if the things they were taught were SO. They were not looking to disprove, but to prove.

    I’ve been around Todd Bentley in meetings since 2004. I have seen people healed through his ministry. But, that is me.

    But if you won’t accept the lab work, the before and after x-rays, the written doctor’s statements, then what proof are you looking for?

  12. June 10, 2008 3:10 pm

    Rahab,

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for this!! This is so long overdue! I have been “watching” from the sidelines, reading several blogs and debates about the validity of the revival, Todd’s ministry and have also found the accusations thrown at him, and other ministries associated with him to be awful to say the least!

    Ironically enough, it was a post from you on the website of one of the biggest critics out there leading the charge (Miriam of the End Times Prophetic blog, yes I said it) that lead me to your blog, so I guess it has served one purpose. I actually subscribed to her blog for a time (via Google Reader), but as the attacks on several ministries continued and mounted, and when she turned her attention to Todd and the revival, I got disgusted and unsubscribed. (Hers is the second blog I’ve unsubscribed from via Google Reader because of negative comments about what is happening in Lakeland).

    I too agree with other posters here and on other blogs that yes being part of the “Charismatic realm” of Christianity doesn’t mean you suspend critical thought, but God’s ways and means of making himself known to humanity sometimes is far above the norm, what we are used, etc.

    Another theme that I find over and over is anything just about that is supernatural is of the devil, New Age, the occult, ad nauseum. The latest thing out there accuses Todd, Bob Jones, and others of using Kundalini yoga to bewitch the people! Come on! How about, we serve a supernatural God and because of unbelief, the “dark side” started operating in the things that we as believers should have been doing/experiencing in the presence of the Lord all along! We serve a Supernatural GOD! I don’t want a Christian life that is devoid of power, glory, and most importantly the Presence of God in my life. I’ve had enough of that from the Pentecostal denomination that I grew up in.

    I love how the Doctrine Police/Heresy Hunters usually come from the cessationist camp, and throw around words like “discernment” when truthfully the context that discernment is used in the word is in “discerning of spirits” — oh wait — that means, spirits do exist — both evil and good. Like many others have said, revival is messy — and you know what else — it reveals things that are going on in our hearts, and that includes all of us the pro-revival camp and the anti-revival camp. About the second or third week in April, I heard clearly in my spirit “Get to Lakeland” and I’m making plans to do just that. I don’t claim to be a great minister, but the Lord does speak to me and frankly NONE of the criticism that I have read about Todd resonates to me — it all just sounds like flesh disguising itself as speaking for the Lord at the very least, and harsh, hate-filled writing from a bunch of cowards who want to hide behind their computer screens and throw stones at the most! (I had to get that off my chest).

    Sometimes I wonder, are we watching the same thing? I mean accusing the worship leader of building the people up so they can be hypnotized and accept anything Todd preaches is beyond stretching it for me. Heather Clark has been criticized as using trance dance to bewitch the people (her style didn’t appeal to me, but I’m not going to attack her), David Herzog has been pulled apart, again by the infamous Miriam and I for one, see that more and more the actions of the Doctrine Police are not God, nor are they godly.

    Digging up Todd’s man’s past is also a despicable act that for the life of me I cannot fathom. I see comments like “I wouldn’t let that guy near my kids” posted on video clips of Todd on YouTube and of course on the aforementioned leader of the pack against Todd amongst others. Never mind that the blood of Jesus has blotted out Todd’s sins and all our sins — past, present and future. Never mind that he came out and revealed his past on his own. Has any of them considered that if he did this at the age of 14, that perhaps he did what was done to him?

    Anyway, again I’m glad for you and other bloggers in the blogosphere who aren’t swallowing all the venom the doctrine police are spewing out hook, line and sinker. I realize that the Lord doesn’t need any of us to validate what he is doing, but I wonder what does the world think of all this in-fighting that is going on in plain sight?

  13. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 11, 2008 1:25 am

    Thank you, Rain.

  14. Steve permalink
    June 11, 2008 8:31 am

    You greatly critcise those who are sceptics to such movements, but yet it is biblical (Matthew 24:24). If false prophets are capable of performing signs and wonders, such as those happening at Lakeside – we can not merely assume that the movement is from God because there’s healings. Therefore, if you can not assess the works to discover its source what can you assess? My view on this would be to assess the doctrine of a movement. And Todd Bentley’s doctrine is flawed. Talk of seeing angels and them being under his command, going into a third heaven, conversing with Paul about how Abraham helped him write Hebrews? Now if you consider this correct, how come when criticised for this Bentley removed all contents concerning thses matters from his website. Thats not the actions of someone secure in his doctrine. And you also quote where Paul that as long as the gospel is preached it doesn’t matter how. Yet previous to that you stated that Bentley doesn’t preach as he just ministers the kingdom. Paul doesn’t say it doesn’t matter how healings take place as long as they’re done, because Jesus himself in Matthew says that those not of him are capable of that.

    Now I for one, am still unsure about this whole thing. I’m not saying its totally wrong, but my assessment of scripture suggests to me that it is not right. I pray God will help me discern correctly.

  15. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 11, 2008 10:07 am

    You give satan too much credit, Steve. He cannot create and he certainly cannot raise the dead. He does not have life within himself, nor does he have the power of life and death. He can kill, but he cannot give life.

    Creative miracles are also beyond his abilities. He can heal blindness that he caused, but he cannot create an eye where there was no eye.

    Angels are common in the Bible. They were so common in the NT that when Peter came to the door, they thought it was his angel and no one went to see. Now, I don’t know about you, but if I heard there was an angel outside the door, I would go see what it looked like. They didn’t.

    If they were common then, why wouldn’t they be common now? I have had interaction with angels. They are very much around, as they are sent to minister to us by the Father.

    Todd’s website is updated regularly. He is growing, like Christians should be, and as he gains understanding, his teachings change. Case in point, last year he was teaching that raising the dead was not like healing the sick. He had an encounter in an attempt to raise a dead child that nearly killed him. Now, he has a better understanding of this subject.

    Read the document I have posted in the article A Theological Defense. It is a great biblical explanation of many of these things.

  16. John C permalink
    June 11, 2008 8:16 pm

    the question was asked today in bible study..”can satan raise someone from the dead?” the answer we came up with is ..YES!if God allows it..and God can allow it for his purpose because God causes all things to work for good for those who love him,for those who are called to his purpose”.. Romans 8:28-now i did’nt say God did this,also satan can make it look as if someone was raised through what he does best lies and deception,this i believe has and is taking place…and those who are foolish enough to jump on the revival bandwagon in lakeland have been deceived or are at a point of weakness..God’s ways are way beyond anything at lakeland that i’ve seen and heard…the ones who defend it are full of pride and need to repent..like it or not..you have nothing to lose if you do and everything if you don’t but if you do do it with a sincere heart..with love.JOhn

  17. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 12, 2008 10:01 am

    John, please show me one place in scripture where satan is able to raise the dead? Life ALWAYS has to do with the breath of GOD entering someone. God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. In Revelation, the breath of life from God entered into the two witnesses after they had been dead for 3 1/2 days.

  18. John C permalink
    June 12, 2008 2:19 pm

    once again i did not say it has happened…if God allowed it it can happen..show me where it says even if god allowed it it can’t happen..God will never violate his word even though this sounds extreme i believe its possible,one scripture that comes close is this..Revelation 13:3…read some before and after..this is where the beast from the sea has a fatal wound on one of its heads and “as if it had been slain”and the fatal wound is healed and the whole earth is amazed and follows the beast…now this says”as if it had been slain”the point here is the fatal wound was healed NOT by God but by satan…now this can be argued but it does have merit just the same and of course this will be during the tribulation period and my main point is not to go around and teach satan can raise from the dead the point is many fantastic things satan will and can be able to do and this cannot be argued…thanks for the response.in love.John

  19. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 12, 2008 2:57 pm

    The problem is that the beast is a metaphor and not a human. Know any ten-headed humans? Most “prophecy” experts consider this to be an economic system. Physical healing is not involved.

    The key issue for me is found in John 5:25 – 26
    25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

    Life is something reserved for the Godhead. God no where in scripture granted any created being the power to have life in itself such that that life could be given to others.

    God breathed in man and man became a living soul. Giving life to an eternal being is something only God can do. Only the Father and the Son are shown in scripture to have this ability.

    I started looking up scripture on this yesterday. In none of the passages that I can find so far is healing listed in any of the lists the things that false prophets can do. I haven’t fully completed the study yet, but I have found it interesting.

    I started looking at this when I heard Bill Johnson say that healing is the children’s bread. My Heavenly Father would never let me receive bread from the enemy. He has promised he would not do so.

  20. John C permalink
    June 12, 2008 6:34 pm

    i understand what your saying about the beast out of the sea being a metaphor but its argueable,i never said the beast was a human, i never said a false prophet could raise someone from the dead,bottom line and i say it again IF God allowed it to happen it could happen…but also anything satan does no matter how “wonderful a sign” its nothing like what God can of course and its counterfeit at best.satan is a thief,a killer and a destroyer…but if God allows it satan can do things that “appear” miraculious…and something like..who would of thought that king saul would go to a medium and that medium could bring up samuel spiritually from the dead-now thats a great area of study..

  21. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 12, 2008 9:06 pm

    John, I see your point. Right now I am working through my own theology on some of this. It just dawned on me that in none of the lists of things false prophets can do does healing appear. I am beginning to think that the church has been giving the devil far more credit and accrediting more power to him than he has.

    Yes, the whole scene with Saul, the witch of Endor and Samuel is interesting. The witch was the most surprised, I think, that she actually got Samuel to appear.

  22. Steve permalink
    June 13, 2008 4:26 am

    I appreciate the fact that the Bible does not state that the Devil has or is capable of raising people from the dead. And as I said I am currently neither against or for this movement. However, if the Bible states that those not of God are capable of miracles (Matthew 24:24, Matthew 7:22) then surely we should not just assume something is of God because of signs and wonders?

    Again I’ll make reference to Bentley’s doctrine. Of course the Bible makes many references to Angels, but under the obedience of God not man. And please give me a reference to a female Angel in the Bible? Bentley refers to Emma, and as a female Angel – or as later stated, or neutral gender.

    I am well aware that we should not give Satan credit, but at the same time the bible calls us to discern such things that take place. I am being obedient to my Father, and my very reading this article is through trying to gain a rounded perspective of this movement.

    And please can you explain why on the 7th June, Bentley read out a prophecy stating that Jesus would physically come to Lakeland on the 8th June (I saw the video on youtube). This prophecy suggests that Jesus will come on a cloud, in physical presence – very similar to how Revelation describes the second coming. Todd then realises that this is unscriptural and attempts to explain the prophecy as meaning Jesus presence will come. Well my question is: If Jesus has promised his presence on the 8th June, why hasn’t he been present previously since the revival started in April?!

  23. John C permalink
    June 13, 2008 4:34 am

    she also of course was extremely fearfull because she realized it was saul and it was he of all people who drove out all and destroyed the witchs(much earlier per the Lords orders) such as she but oviously not all..another evidence of sauls disobedience.

  24. June 14, 2008 8:00 pm

    I’ve been spammed by JP, too. I had the same thought about his “discernment.” Discernment is a gift of the spirit just like the gift of tongues. So, wouldn’t that have ceased at the same time the last apostle died just like tongues and healing? Did the tongues-speaking members of the early church stop speaking in tongues the day the last apostle died, or did their tongues just start being of the devil from that nano-second on?

  25. June 15, 2008 6:06 pm

    The Apostle Paul said “Watch your life and doctrine closely”..darn Paul and his “doctrine police” ways…if only Paul had be intimate with Jesus.

    D

  26. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 15, 2008 6:11 pm

    Yeah, too bad Paul said that the signs, wonders and miracles that followed his ministry authenticated his calling as an apostle. Too bad he didn’t know not to encourage people to look for such things…

  27. John C permalink
    June 17, 2008 6:56 pm

    you said it…signs and wonders FOLLOWED paul he did’nt chase after them like those who performing in the south..they chase after them..and what about the false signs and wonders we are warned about …the Lord was’nt serious-just blow-off the bible freaks they take it so seriously…why don’t they lighten up? maybe because..”Lord Lord,we cast out demons in your name….Jesus says-depart from me for I NEVER knew you”

  28. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 17, 2008 8:26 pm

    Paul said to pursue earnestly the greater gifts, especially prophecy. I am pursuing everything that the Lord Jesus commanded us to do. He said to make disciples of all nations, to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers. I want to bring the gospel of the kingdom to the world the same way Paul did (See 1 Cor 2:4-5). Words are just words without the power of the Spirit to back them up.

  29. John C permalink
    June 18, 2008 2:17 pm

    actually he said pursue LOVE and earnestly seek the greater gifts.. but where does the word of God say to do things the way Paul did?.. Paul said “follow me as I follow Christ”..I admire the apostle Paul but its all about Christ not Paul.

  30. tom permalink
    June 18, 2008 7:43 pm

    Deut 13:1-10 tells us about prophets or those with dreams who have a sign or a wonder come to pass. Even if they get their prophecies right but have you follow another God (such as misrepresenting him). We are being tested to see if we love the Lord fully and obey his voice (his word) alone. If they represent God as a force or power that we can control or distort his nature as they do today, even if the miraculous happens we are not to heed them.

    People prophesy right because their doctrine is right. Why would God speak to someone about the future when they can’t understand the scripture on what he has already spoken? Their predictions don’t come true because their teaching is wrong. So false teachers when they prophesy will become false prophets.

  31. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 18, 2008 8:04 pm

    Tom, you obviously have no idea of what the New Testament gift of prophecy is about. It is not foretelling, though there can be some of that. It is forth telling the mind and council of God. Your doctrine has nothing to do with the accuracy of your prophetic gift. The gift is from the Holy Spirit and your accuracy is solely dependent on your ability to hear him.

    I have actually received some amazingly accurate prophetic words from Oneness Pentecostals. Their doctrine is significantly different than mine, and according to my belief system inaccurate. But the word I received was totally God. It spoke to situations going on in my life that no one knew about and answered a silent prayer that only God knew about.

    At the same time, I have gotten some bogus stuff from people who were theologically very, very accurate. Everyone has a bad day and that’s what this person was having. They were off. It happens.

    The gifts of the Spirit are birthed and operated through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Your doctrine has nothing to do with it. Well, I suppose if you are cessationist, your doctrine does prevent you from operating in the gifts at all.

  32. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 18, 2008 8:08 pm

    By the way, Tom, show me in scripture where the voice of God is the Bible you hold in your hand.

    The scriptures you referenced show Moses talking to the Lord and listening to his actual voice, not reading about him from a book.

    There is a difference between obeying scripture and obeying the voice of God. He is still speaking today. The problem is that much of his church has stopped listening.

  33. tom permalink
    June 19, 2008 10:12 am

    amen rahad you are absolutely right. He is still speaking today, and you are right people are not listening, and it is sad. these are somethings that God tells us. you agree He does speak through His Word right?
    Deuteronomy 13 v 12-14 “13 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town.” (Sword = Word of God)

    Proverbs 17 v 150 “He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD”

    Proverbs 18 v 15 “The heart of the prudent acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge”

    Titus 1 v 9 “Holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”

    1 Timothy 1 v 3 “That you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine”

    John 7 v 24 Jesus said: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (using the Word of God)

    Rom 16 v 17 “Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them”

    1 Corinthians 5 v 9 v 13 “9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES

  34. tom permalink
    June 19, 2008 10:17 am

    it doesn’t matter what i think or say, it matters what God says, or it should if you are really in Christ. God gives us free will to choose what we want. i just pray that brothers and sisters you wouldn’t puff yourself up so much to think you can’t be deceived. God bless

  35. tom permalink
    June 19, 2008 10:27 am

    Tom, you obviously have no idea of what the New Testament gift of prophecy is about. It is not foretelling, though there can be some of that. It is forth telling the mind and council of God. i have to disagree i do, and if i want to know “the mind of God”, well i have it all right here its called the bible.

  36. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 19, 2008 11:22 am

    And you just proved my point.

    Don’t bash what you have no concept of.

  37. tom permalink
    June 19, 2008 12:57 pm

    hey this article was written on june 9th. wasn’t jesus suppose to return. that is according to a false prophecy given by wendy alec and todd bentley. wow the circus act just gets more and more entertaining.

  38. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 19, 2008 1:35 pm

    Again, don’t bash what you have no concept of. Wendy never said Jesus was going to return. Her prophetic word was an image of Jesus coming in power to meeting with his people at the meeting.

  39. tom permalink
    June 19, 2008 1:47 pm

    rahab you might want to listen again. i know you don’t care about truth, but you only care about what tickels your ear, but here is the video in english.

    another example of the “chosen prophets” not only do they twist the Word of God, they even twist their own made up prophecies.

  40. tom permalink
    June 19, 2008 2:01 pm

    i got it maybe jesus was lying. i don’t think so. you choose to defend your heretic heroes, instead of following the real jesus. i will be praying that God humblees you enough to repent. God bless

  41. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 19, 2008 5:07 pm

    Again, Tom, since you do not operate in gifts of the Holy Spirit, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are carnally minded and walk after the flesh, so I am not surprised that you don’t understand spiritual concepts or language. I feel very sorry for you and saddened at what you are storing up for yourself. You have chosen not to walk in all that Jesus made available to you.

  42. tom permalink
    June 19, 2008 7:01 pm

    lol okay then i will leave the teachings of jesus, and follow your false prophets. so now according to you i am now walking in the gifts of the spirit. even though i already am, i just don’t chase after signs and wonders, and i don’t follow false prophets.

  43. Renee permalink
    June 20, 2008 5:06 pm

    I went to Lakeland and it is the real deal. I went to get some and during my time there I got healed. I had a tumor the size of a orange and it dissolved. I have medical proof. I am still healed to this day. Unless you experience the healing power of God you will continue to try to analyze it. Only by the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Truth can we discern the distinction of deception or counterfeit messages. Instead of religious debate, which destroys faith and results in an independent spirit, we must become dependent totally upon the Lord as a yielded vessel washed in truth of His Word. Rather than living by a judgemental spirit of criticism, we will sow mercy at every opportunity in order to recieve mercy (see James 2:13). Instead of criticism I will look at others through the new wine of grace. I give God all the Glory for my healing. I praise Jesus and uplift his Holy Name. I love the Holy Spirit and his continual work in me. The Lakeland experience has only caused me to draw closer to God. Praise Jesus!!

  44. tom permalink
    June 20, 2008 10:56 pm

    i know you will hate this because this message is based on the Word of God, not something that tickles your ear.

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid979593901?bclid=992147186&bctid=1295342097

  45. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 20, 2008 11:12 pm

    Hey, Tom, watch the revival tonight? Todd preached on The 7 Signs of the Kingdom. I know if you did watch it, you were probably totally depressed because it was totally from the Word of God. It has to be hard to hear someone skillfully handling the Word and walk in the miraculous, too, when you don’t.

    By the way, did you see my new post? The Belfast News Letter, the oldest existing English language newspaper, is reporting on yet another return from the dead. Kid was dead for 16 minutes on the operating table and came back following his Father’s appeal to Todd Bentley’s ministry for prayer.

  46. tom permalink
    June 20, 2008 11:44 pm

    lol@todd preached of course he didn’t use a bible. probably just more new age visions. might as well play with an ouija board.

  47. tom permalink
    June 20, 2008 11:50 pm

    rahad todd isn’t even a christian. by the way i would love to see an authentic healing, and if todd really was from God, then why doesn’t he go to the hospitals and heal people. oh wait because he can’t. instead he has to be on stag and he needs to whip up the crowd. oh by the way tell todd jesus didn’t come back on june 9th. i figured he would have gotten that right since he supposely visits heaven through an open portal. lol

  48. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 21, 2008 12:07 am

    Tom, you are the one I would suspect of not being saved. You have none of the character of Jesus in your writings. You are not seeking the truth, only what supports your limited, immature, carnal view of scripture. You obviously have no relationship with the Holy Spirit.

    I feel very sorry for you. I remember being locked in that world before Jesus set me free and opened my eyes.

  49. Nick permalink
    June 23, 2008 1:48 am

    John Wimber used to say if I recall correctly ‘Your brother isn’t your enemy, the enemy is your enemy”

    It saddens me to see Christians stoning each other

  50. John C permalink
    June 24, 2008 5:15 pm

    all i see is tom trying to keep you from destruction…believe not every spirit,unless its from todd bentley then run with it no matter what…of course thats not the scripture but maybe you think it is?

  51. Nick permalink
    June 27, 2008 3:12 am

    Hi John

    Sorry I quite busy at work so haven’t had time to comment but over the last few weeks I’ve read much on the web about Todd Bentley. At this stage I’m just praying for the lord to show me what he wants me to do and reading the Bible.

    My comment wasn’t about Todd but rather from my emotions that the harsh cutting
    use of the Tongue isn’t for Christians. If someone bites you don’t bite them back.
    I however appreciate your concern for my soul. I need it 🙂

    Love in Christ to you all
    Nick

  52. tom permalink
    July 4, 2008 11:45 pm

    following todd bentley is no different than playing with an oujie board

  53. tom permalink
    July 4, 2008 11:48 pm

    rahab just because i dont endorse your false teachers doesnt mean im not saved. i truly wonder about your salvation. im sure God will say the same thing to you as he will say to todd bentley and all of your other heretic heroes, “get away from me for i dont know you”

  54. rahabsplace permalink*
    July 5, 2008 12:14 am

    Gee, Tom, those of us who were in the occult before we became Christians can tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and a demon. Those like you who are filled carnality apparently can’t.

    It’s real simple. Satan doesn’t lead people to Jesus. They do not get born again under his ministry. Satan doesn’t give Jesus glory. Satan does not worship the Son of God for hours on end, nor does he encourage others to do so. Satan does not have the power to heal. That is something only God can do. Satan can only steal, kill and destroy.

  55. veronicagriffin permalink
    July 23, 2008 9:16 am

    the frist thing i would like to say i know for a fact if this man tod did not have any tattos on him no one would not even have any thing to say about him frist and for most if u dont belive that some one can get healed by god thourgh using tod then how much faith do you have in god satan only comes to kill steal and destory jonh 1o/10 and do you think satan will stand up every night and talk about god no way man get real and one more thing who are we to judge him who are we thank god that he is teaching the word of god think you jesus and the reason for me talking about his tattos my husband does christation rap and he has tattos all over him and i know for a fact he is a man of god and people do him the same way and god can use anybody it dont matter someonedrugs some one in jail that is what is so wrong with the world they look at the out side and god looks at the inside thats why noone wants to get savied bc people paint a good picture of it but the truth be told its very hard to be a godly person and i hope ever one will think about this

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