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Patricia King and Extreme Prophetic

August 2, 2007

I just listened to a video that Patricia King made available on her website about the current controversy surrounding her ministry and teachings. I wanted to comment on some of the things going on in the body of Christ in general because I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, take a step back and think about some things.

The Witch Hunt for Doctrinal Purity

I have some real problems with the doctrine police out there. Everyone seems to agree on the need for doctrinal purity. My question is, Who’s Doctrine?

If you are Pentecostal, you can hold to the foundational truths of the movement and be butchered by you Southern Baptist brethren for daring to believe that there is such a thing as a baptism in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. That is Pentecostal doctrine, but Southern Baptist doctrine officially holds that all such manifestations and gifts ceased with the death of the last apostle or the close of the New Testament period, depending on which interpretation you use.

If you are of the group that believes that the five-fold ministry is the timeless model for the church and that all 5 offices still exist today, EVERYBODY has you on their hit list. It’s like the one thing the Pentecostals, the cessationists and the liberals all seem to be able to agree on – this group is wrong.

The one thing every group needs to remember is whatever group you belong to, that group was at one time persecuted by other Christians as being heretics. Read your history.

There are some things that are absolute and non-negotiable, but the witch hunts are very rarely about those. They are about peripheral issues, things that truly are not essential for salvation.

Doctrine Over Character

This one really drives me nuts. I think my favorite example of this is the KJV only guys. There is a group running around who truly believe that the King James Version of the Bible is the only bible you can use. Like Jesus spoke King James English or something. They will beat you hammer and tong on this issue. Some will even declare you are not saved if you read any other version.

There’s only one thing wrong with this picture. The guy that founded the group has been married four times. Apparently, as long as you read the correct version, you don’t have to obey it.

Another case that really got to me was the uproar over the Kansas City Prophets back in the late ‘80’s and early ‘90’s. A Kansas City pastor circulated an enormous document and tapes regarding all the doctrinal errors of Mike Bickle, Paul Cain, Bob Jones, etc. John Wimber came in and investigated the allegations. There was a meeting between this pastor, John Wimber, Mike Bickle and Paul Cain. Mike publicly apologized for errors that in fact were made. They were earth-shattering errors such as in relating the fulfillment of a prophetic word, he got the dates wrong on the drought. The drought happened just as the prophetic word said it would, but Mike reported the wrong dates in a meeting.

Oh, there’s a deception that will rock the foundations of the church, don’t you think?

Shortly after this meeting happened (like a few weeks), the pastor who started this witch hunt faxed his resignation to his church from Atlanta, where he was living with his secretary. I don’t think any man wakes up one day and says, “Gee, I think I’ll destroy my marriage, my ministry and my future today. Wonder if my secretary will run away with me?” I think it highly probably he was involved with her while meeting with these guys to hammer on them about their doctrinal errors because the time frame between the meeting and his resignation was so short.

Guess he didn’t consider adultery a doctrinal error.

To say I am not impressed with the modern heresy hunters is an understatement.

Extreme Prophetic

I have some personal experience with this ministry. Earlier this year I had the opportunity to serve for a few weeks at their headquarters in Maricopa, Arizona. I want to make clear that I am not currently associated with this ministry in any way, other than as an internet subscriber.

I went out to provide some assistance in their administrative area. As such, I was around the members of the team on a daily basis. Patricia was in and out during this time.

What I saw there was a group of people who passionately love Jesus. Every day the administrative staff starts with prayer. They pray for what is going on in their areas and they pray for each other. When there are any difficulties (equipment breaks, etc.), the first thing they do is pray and ask the Lord for His wisdom in finding the solution. I saw this on a daily basis. They also prayed every day for the people who had registered for the current conference.

One of my job duties was to open the mail. I saw the requests that came in from the ministry’s partners. Patricia values her partners. I know for a fact that every request that comes in is prayed over. I heard more than one conversation about what can be done to show appreciation to the partners. As a matter of fact, at the Growing in the Supernatural Conference that was held in May, Patricia and whatever speaker she had in tow would go out where people were waiting in line for the doors to open in the morning and just pray for people.

Ron Cocking, Patricia’s husband, was a pure joy to meet. He worked every day mailing out resources that were requested and in whatever needed to be done. I have never met anyone who can pack a trailer the way Ron can. I am in awe. When it came to practical servant ministry, Ron is the absolute best.

Character and Fruit

I could go on and on about what I saw, but the bottom line is that I saw consistently godly character in everyone that I dealt with at Extreme Prophetic. It did not matter if we were loading out a trailer at 2 am following a conference or at 8:00 am in a prayer meeting, the members of that team were the same. They were kind, gracious and generous.

You can posture and fake a lot of things. You can look good in front of a crowd or in front of a camera, but you can’t fake out the people who work for you. They know where the money goes. They know what your real attitudes toward people are. Everyone that I met at Extreme Prophetic held Patricia and Ron in the highest respect, and Patricia and Ron treated the staff with respect and love.

My pastor is always hammering on me about knowing people and ministries by the fruit they bear. What’s the fruit? He always asks me that when I talk to him and ask his opinion. The fruit that was produced in my life was this: I fell more deeply in love with Jesus. In a period of a few weeks, the Lord transformed me. I learned to hear his voice more clearly. I lost a lot of fear and realized that the Holy Spirit was more able to guide me and teach me than satan is to lie to me and deceive me. I regained my hope and the courage to pursue the call of God that is on my life. I regained my love of holiness and the determination not to tolerate anything in my life that hindered my intimacy with Jesus. I would have to say that that’s pretty good fruit.

So from this little worm’s point of view, what I saw was a walking, breathing, living representation of the life of Jesus in a group of people who are determined to make that reality known to whoever will hold still long enough. I can’t speak to doctrinal purity and the like. Who am I to make that call? What I can say is that I have dealt with enough fakes and flakes in ministry to know when I am looking at the real deal.

Someone once said that if you have a right heart and wrong doctrine, God will fix your doctrine, but if you have right doctrine and a wrong heart, He can’t do anything for you. Patricia and her team are actively pursing the heart of Jesus and I don’t think you can have more of a right heart than that. I’m not worried about their doctrine. They love the Lord enough that if He has a problem with anything they are doing, they will change it. And He is quite capable of making His displeasure known.

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90 Comments leave one →
  1. Mina Aguilar permalink
    August 4, 2007 1:27 pm

    Amen. thank you for supporting Patricia King. I’m just an e-mail subscriber and Im truly blessed by what I received everyday. I really believe that this ministry is a Jesus ministry and that Patricia King is undergoing attacks because she is preaching the truth. I really feel sad about that group of ministers who have
    attacked her without giving her a chance to speak and explain and I just pray for unity in the body of Christ and if they are truly hearing from God that they will repent and
    retract their accusations.
    I’m not surprised that this is happening now because these are end -times and the Bible says that there will be false prophets in our midst. The Lord is probably doing a
    clean-up job and exposing those who are no longer hearing from Him.
    Still we need to pray for the body of Christ that there will be love among us and as Patricia said, let us work together in love.

  2. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 4, 2007 1:48 pm

    Thanks, Mina.

    I agree. Watch how Patricia handles this controversy. She is serious about a Love War and she will walk in love toward those who are attacking her.

    I am serious about watching the character of people. How they handle things like this is more important than whether their evolving understanding of non-essential beliefs meets the criteria of the latest group of doctrine police who don’t follow Matthew 18.

    The fact that Patricia had to find this from sources other than those making the accusations already gives me a check about the validity of the charges. Who’s walking in uprightness and love here?

  3. August 4, 2007 2:39 pm

    Thank you very much for this article. It was a huge blessing to me. I watched Patricia’s video a few days ago, right after the EMail came in, that invited us partners to watch it. To be honest I was bit p…ed off when I listened to what Patricia had to go through. But I’m absolutely thankful for the wisdom of God that she received on dealing with this.

    Blessings!

    Tom, Missionary to a little estate in Wales, UK.

  4. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 4, 2007 4:48 pm

    Thanks, Tom.

    Happy hunting in Wales. My pastor is Welsh, or at least he’s always telling me he is. Blessings on you in your efforts there.

  5. Jennifer permalink
    August 7, 2007 4:33 am

    Love you and your ministry Patricia…

    Thanks for sharing this on the controversy

    Greetings from The Netherlands!!!

  6. endtimespropheticwords permalink
    August 7, 2007 7:12 am

    I am not going to go into detail about Patricia King or any of her and the ‘prophetic’ movement’s errors but I do have concern about your way of testing things and your attitude toward spiritual discernment.

    ‘Someone once said that if you have a right heart and wrong doctrine, God will fix your doctrine, but if you have right doctrine and a wrong heart, He can’t do anything for you.’

    That is a really, really naive thing to say. It is only true if you seek God’s face on what you hear and test and weigh it. I hear this comment a lot, as well as another good one is that ‘God will not allow us to be decieved.’ I know some really ‘good’ and ‘decieved’ people who are Roman Catholic, a couple of JWs, a very sincere white witch and lots of devout New Agers – some of whose lives on the surface bear more fruit than many Christians.

    God has given you a brain: use it and test and weigh what these people say in detail against scripture. If it contradicts scripture then these people are not prophets of the Most High.

    Test and weigh everything against scripture. All error needs to be opposed and it is vitally important in these days as what you may view as only minor heresy may ultimately lead to a great many falling away from the true Jesus Christ.

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com

  7. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 7, 2007 7:53 am

    Thanks for your comments, endtmes, but I think you missed my point. Show me where Patricia is in error in any of the essentials of the faith. If you look on her site, you can see the results of the three separate audits she has had conducted on her ministry. One was financial/physical, one was theological and one was prophetic. None of these came back with any findings. Patricia takes the charge of error very seriously.

    As I said, it is very rare that the doctrine police are after someone because they don’t believe in the virgin birth. The controversy usually happens over a disputable doctrine.

    The argument over predestination vs. free will is a perfect example. I can actually prove both sides from scripture, just as Calvin and Arminus could. Calvinists put people to death over it. This is not a doctrine that is essential to salvation.

    That’s the whole point. Fight for the essentials, but walk in love in the rest. God is perfectly able to take care of His people and His church. He’s done it for thousands of years without our help.

  8. August 7, 2007 3:40 pm

    I am also a humble subscriber to XP and wonder where all this controversy comes from…..

    I must sy though that your ‘insiders’ perception of things is really great, I always wonder what Patricia is like ‘off’ camera – now I know – THE SAME!!! Awesome, Godly and full of love!!

    Great blog!

    ONE LOVE

  9. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 7, 2007 4:16 pm

    Justin, it comes from the same place it always comes from: satan’s desire to divide the body of Christ. If he can keep us devouring one another, we’ll leave his kingdom alone.

    He missed the mark on this one, though. Extreme Prophetic has a genuine passion to reach the lost and this will not hinder them from pursuing that goal.

  10. August 8, 2007 8:38 pm

    I just watched the video and then I stumbled across your blog. I like what you have to say about this controversy. I have been watching her for a few months now, and I have always admired her integrity, and love for our Lord. I couldn’t believe the things people were saying about her, but at the same time, it doesn’t surprise me. I think her message of love is crucial in these last days. The enemy is doing everything to destroy Christians, but we really have to fight back with the authority that has been given to us!

  11. endtimespropheticwords permalink
    August 10, 2007 4:09 am

    My major concern about Patricia King is her ready association with the New Apostolic Reformation and the ‘former’ Kansas City Prophets with their heretical and dangerous Latter Rain theology: eg. C Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, Kim Clement, Bob Jones and other Elijah List favourites.

    Now whilst I cannot blame Patrica King for the ‘sins’ and errors of these men, I cannot understand how somebody in a true prophetic ministry not only condones these people but goes several steps further than that and is (apparently) mentored by them too when there is no doubt that God is calling His people to have nothing to do with them.

    Why has Patricia, if she is a prophet, not then heard this call? Could it be her discernment is not working properly as she has been somehow, albeit innocently, been seduced by the false? I recognise that many true and genuine and loving Christians are in this movement still, blind to its errors, but if Patricia is blind she is being led into serious error and leading many others along this same path with her.

    This continued association with them raises a major red flag for me as C Peter Wagner et al are leading many into serious deception. Perhaps Patricia has not heard the call to test and weigh everything or forgotten it, so carried away by third heaven visions and experiences etc. If she is NOT blind then I do not wish to think what her true motives and agendas are.

    I am also concerned about the spirit of some of her prophecies, which like many on the Elijah list, are whitewashing, crying peace peace when there is no peace, and are not truly calling the church to repent and to prepare itself.

    Furthermore the ‘soaking’ times she teaches are extremely gnostic and people could open themselves up to all sorts. Being in God’s presense is far more than a feeling or anointing, and to speak of spending a long time emptying one’s mind and ‘soaking’ in God as compared to spending time with God, talking to him, glorifying and honouring Him, worshiping Him, loving Him, is a deceptive twist that can lead to gnostic deception where experiences are not weighed and tested and seducing spirits leading astray.

    Remember Satan comes as an agnel of light, not with a pitchfork and devil costume! He looks and sounds like the real thing as he quotes scripture: pp the beast that looks just like a lamb but speaks like a dragon.

    I found this on the web at http://www.swiftfire.org/news/?id=64 – Sharnael Wolverton, founder of Swiftfire Ministries International met Bob Jones of White Dove Ministries who introduced her to a golden eagle named “Swift.” “Swift, is sent forth to those in order to carry the purposes of God swiftly.” Another encounter was with Patricia King of Extreme Prophetic, who had also been introduced to Swift.

    This sounds very dodgy and New Age to me. Do you know anything about ‘Swift’?

    BTW, many years ago I used to think that Paul Cain and the KC Prophets were great. Cain was my ‘hero’ and I longed for his prophetic mantle. I never stopped to ask God about them, as leaders I loved and respected in the church and my missions organisaton said they were great and so I jumped on board without testing it properly for myself. It wasn’t until years later that I stopped to ask God about Paul Cain (this is before he openly fell) and God told me what he truly thought about Paul Cain and his associates. I was truly shocked but it opened my blind eyes to them. God also said that Wagner was antichrist and part of the end times deception. Before you scoff at me, check it out for yourself with God – just ask HIM. The more I see coming out of Wagner’s camp, the more it comfirms this.

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/

  12. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 10, 2007 9:22 am

    How many meetings have you been in with Rick Joyner and the KC Prophets?

    I’ve been around these guys since 1989 and I have see consistent good fruit in my life as a result of their ministry. They are not perfect. They make mistakes. Some of them even fell into sin and repented.

    You are basing your judgemnet of these men and this movement upon the totally subective criteria of “God told me.” The voice of the Lord that we hear is completely subjective and filtered through out own emotions, opinions and prejudices. I know this is true in the way I hear the Lord.

    Either Ephesians 4:11 is true or Christianity is a lie. It’s that simple. Either Jesus did give apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to the body of Christ or not. Show me in scripture where any of these offices ceased to exist. Apostles did not die with the 12 because Paul was not one of the 12 and an apostle. Show me where God makes exceptions to His word.

    I have had dealings with Swift. He’s kind of awesome. Swift is an angel who is currently attached to Patricia’s ministry. He is simply a ministering spirit who’s mission is to help them swiftly accomplish what God gives them to do.

    Soaking is an awesome thing. Scripture clearly teaches that if you ask for bread, you are not going to be given stone. When you ask for the Holy Spirit, God doesn’t give you a demon. When soak in the presence of the Lord in order to be more open with Him, He doesn’t allow anything else but His Spirit to minister to you.

    Maybe the reason that Patricia doesn’t hear all these things about these people is because she actually has relationship with them on a regular basis and is in a position to judge the real fruit of their lives, as opposed to those of us who do not move in those circles. I know that when the various Roundtables meet, they talk about the things that they disagree about and either resolve the issue or agree to disagree.

  13. endtimespropheticwords permalink
    August 10, 2007 1:06 pm

    >You are basing your judgment of these men and >this movement upon the totally subective criteria >of “God told me.”

    No, not at all. I do not just say it because ‘God told me’. (I happen to believe Him though.) I test and weigh everything I hear against scripture, I also take it back to God and talk to Him about it. After that I research the facts from documented resources. There is another testimony from these own men’s mouths and ministries to indicate what I speak is the truth.

    >Either Ephesians 4:11 is true or Christianity is >a lie. It’s that simple.

    I believe in the prophetic office and the prophetic gifting, I never said I did not. if you go to my blog, you can see I am an advocate of prophecy. However, I also believe in false prophets and these are the ones who are making most of the noise at the moment.

    >Swift is an angel who is currently attached to >Patricia’s ministry.

    Did he used to belong to William Branham by any chance? Tell me more about your dealings with Swift?

    >Scripture clearly teaches that if you ask for >bread, you are not going to be given stone.

    So why does Paul command us to test and weigh everything? The Corinthian church et al did not want false prophecy in their midst, but they warned to be aware of it, as was the rest of the early church warned about false prophets and false teachers ‘some of whom are in your midst’. Of course there was Jezebel too and the gnostic Nocolatians. Now if the Holy Spirit was not going to allow us to be led astray if we have this simple faith you mention, why were many in the early church led astray who probably had just as much faith than you or I? Because they did not test and weigh stuff, that’s why. God’s guard against error is scripture, scripture and scripture and of course the gift of discernment, and his watchmen.

    >or agree to disagree.

    There are some things you cannot agree to disagree about. There are obvious major problems in the NAR that cannot just be forgotten or ignored. There are serious times leading to end times delusions.

    Did you ask God about Cain yet? And Wagner?

  14. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 11, 2007 1:13 am

    I asked the Lord about Paul Cain years ago. Paul has paid more of a price for the Gospel than you will ever be able to imagine.

    I knew what Paul Cain was up to 6 months or a year before it became public. At this point in time, I can’t remember the exact date the Lord showed me. I have prayed for this man for years and it broke my heart to hear that he had fallen into sin. I continued to pray for him because I know the Lord is gracious and compassionate.

    I knew months before Jimmy Swaggart confessed publicly that he was unclean and involved in some type of sexual immorality. That broke my heart, too and I cried out to the Lord for him.

    I take absolutely no joy in the fall of others. I take no joy in being a witch hunter anymore and flinging up the dirt that I find.

    There is nothing that Paul Cain, Bob Jones, C. Peter Wagner or Patricia King teaches that violates the fundamentals of the faith. They all passionately believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect, sinless Son of God. That he was both God and man, born of a virgin, who died on a cross for the sins of man to bring reconciliation between God and man. They believe that He rose on the 3rd day for our justification, that he ascended to heaven and he will come again in like manner. They all confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

    Those are the fundamentals of the faith and every one of these people believe in that.

    The rest of it is your doctrine vs. their doctrine. Your interpretation vs. their interpretation.

    C. Peter Wagner is not an antichrist and is not part of the end times deception. You, however, have bought into it already. It has to with love or the lack of it. It has to do with the fact that Jesus died for these people. Are you willing to lay your life down for them. If you are not, if you do not love to that extent, then you are already walking in the spirit of antichrist.

    When I heard about Paul Cain, I cried for days because it broke my heart. It broke my heart because it broke the heart of Jesus that one of his children would be caught up and bound by sin.

    I no longer have an overwhelming need to be right in my doctrine because I realize that my doctrine changes as I grow in intimacy and knowledge of the Lord. I don’t look at scripture the same way now as I did 25 years ago when I came to the Lord. Then it was much more a cut and dried set of rules and there was only one way to interpret it – whatever way the group I was a part of did.

    Then, it was any branch that didn’t bear fruit will be cut off meant that if you weren’t leading people to Jesus, you were going to hell. Now I understand that fruit has to do with producing the life and character of Jesus. It is his life that enables me to effectively bring people into the kingdom of God. Then I worked in fear. Now it is an outflow of who I am in Jesus Christ.

    Paul had flawless theology as a Pharisee, yet he missed who Jesus was. The Lord had to whack him in the head for him to see it. He allowed his zeal to lead him into hatred and persecution of who and what God loved.

    There are plenty of ministers and ministries I do not agree with. I don’t have a need to try to destroy them anymore or tell the world how wrong they are. When Paul brought correction, he was talking to churches that he had direct oversight of. Notice, he did not bring correction in Romans. They were not a church that he had oversight of.

    It would be the height of presumption for me to attempt to bring correction to someone like Patricia King because I have neither relationship with nor oversight over her. If I had serious concerns, I need to take them to her. If I felt like she blew me off, then I would need to take someone else with me and try again. If that failed, then I would need to take it up with those who do have oversight of her. That is the scriptural method of dealing with offense.

  15. endtimespropheticwords permalink
    August 11, 2007 6:48 am

    >I take absolutely no joy in the fall of others.

    My comments about Paul Cain is nothing to do with the fact that he fell (again) into homosexuality and had repeatedly lied about it. That is just an aside for me. I take no delight in this or anyone else falling into sin and have never ever said I do. I recognise anyone can fall, however ‘godly’. I do not ‘judge’ him according to this, neither do I call him a false prophet because of his sin and deceit.

    I have concerns about Paul Cain only because of the fruit that comes out of his lips – Latter Rain heresies (and other stuff) – and because of the dark spirit/s that is/are over and around him. That simple. I ‘judge’ him by what he says. I have tested and weighed him and found him to be heretical, and I can see the ‘frogs’ – the unclean spirits – come out of his mouth (pp Revelation).

    Some years ago, when I enquired of God about Paul Cain, God gave me a vision of Paul Cain with a dark black umbrella over his head. ‘Dark’ in this vision represented ‘satanic-inspired’. I understood the umbrella to represent ‘Latter Rain’ theology/the ‘Latter Rain’ movement and I found out more about it because I knew nothing about it at that time. Note you say that visions CAN come out of our own prejudices (which I beg to differ on if you operate in the true gift and test things) – well, even if that view were correct, at that time Cain was my prophetic ‘hero’ and I was expecting God to say ‘Cain is a great guy and from me’. He did not. He said that Cain was dangerous because of what was over Him, and leading many into error and showed me just how much Cain has infected others through John Wimber & the Vineyard, the K C Prophets, and C Peter Wagner etc. When I enquired of God about Wagner he showed me he was antichrist and I am very, very sure of that. Again, that is nothing to do with my prejudices – Wagner was a hero in the missions school I used to be in and I also used to be in the Vineyard – and again I was expecting to hear he and the Vineyard were great. God does not hold that view.

    Looking at what C Peter Wagner is doing in the NAR with his elite, and examining – scrutinizing – his beliefs – convinces me that he is part of the end times deception, knowingly or unknowingly.

    Your view of weighing up things are seriously lacking (and naive). You are not obeying God to test and weigh everything, and you likewise misunderstand about deception and heresy. It is not just what YOU call the fundamentals we are to test and weigh. We are to test and weigh everything – ALL prophecy and teaching and scruitinize it. The early church was warned about false prophets and false teaching that was not JUST to do with the factors you mention and was told to have nothing to do with it. A little leaven goes through the whole batch and people can get started on a tangent that is originally just a few degrees off from true and end up many miles off from where they started and scriptural truth. Why do you think God was so hard on inter-marriage in the Old Testament and commanded them to completely destroy the idols? When Israel/Judah/the kings disobeyed God and did not completely destroy the idols or left a small percentage of heathens living in their land, they surely suffered from it at a later date. That is what scripture teaches us. Tolerate even a tiny bit of error and it will poison.

    REMEMBER SATAN QUOTES SCRIPTURE – and well. Do you not understand how subtle deception can be? A good conman looks and sounds just like the real thing.

    ‘Signs and wonders to decieve even the elect…’ how can that be, do you expect to see the trident pitchfork before you throw something out to be false? The church will accept the false because it does not know it can be decieved because they take this same naive view as you about discernment and perhaps feel they are wrong if they criticize or are shouted down and called rebellious and to ‘touch not my anointed’ if they do dare speak up. In fact they are rebelling against God for not testing and weighing or speaking up where there is false teaching.

    A fundamental doctrine for the early church was on the return of Christ, the appearance of the antichrist and the post tribulation ‘rapture’. Latter Rain denies the Biblical and early church view of the return of Christ, and rather than teach tribulation they preach blessing and revival and a man-child elite. This is very, very far off the truth. Wagner also promotes elitism and new revelation which is put above the scriptures and his movement more than hints at persecuting those in the church who will not go along with them at a later date.

    >that he ascended to heaven and he will come again in like manner.

    I suggest you see what they say about Christ’s return. It is NOT the same as traditional Christian teaching so I beg to differ. It is very very differant.

    You may not think it matters on these points, but it matters very much. If you do not understand about the rapture and the second coming being post tribulation and all that is to come first before it, you could be led to believe THE antichrist is the true Christ. Through the new prophets/apostles off teaching, you are being prepped for the one world church – embracing Roman Catholicism which is scripturally wrong (Rick Joyner is being very deceitful about this)- and being prepped to accept signs and wonders which you believe more than scripture. You might not think that is the case, but it is the truth.

    >It has to with love or the lack of it.

    That is what you have been taught to say about people like me who cry out ‘you are being decieved’. This is not true about me – how do you know how much I love or do not? – and is also not a scriptural view anyway. Scripture teaches us to warn, rebuke and admonish one another in love – that is to criticize if we see something and we are held accountable if we do not. It is not just (your version) of ‘pastors’ and prophets who have this responisbility. We ARE all to, as we are all accountable to one another. Furthermore the watchmen have even more of a responsibility to warn, or blood will be on their hands (pp Ezekiel). Even in Levitical Moses law, God shows his heart/plan when if we see our neighbour’s animal wonder off, we are to do something about it, even if is it not our own we have a responsibility to do something about it. How much more when we see God’s sheep being led astray!

    Your whole movement whitewashs. It does not find the cracks in the walls to repair them, thus the new church is being built on shaky foundations that will ultimately fall when the heat comes – which it surely will in the Last Days.

  16. endtimespropheticwords permalink
    August 11, 2007 6:59 am

    Tell me more about your dealings with Swift.

    How specifically were you introduced? Is he an eagle or an angel? Does one have to be specifically introduced to Him by Bob Jones or Patricia to meet him?

  17. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 11, 2007 7:44 am

    >Tolerate even a tiny bit of error and it will poison.<

    This is exactly what I am talking about. According to who’s doctrine? Yours? You don’t even recognize a direct quote of scripture from Acts about the return of Jesus. Instead you attack me about my lack of understanding of the second coming.

    There is not a movement or denomination in existence that I cannot find doctrinal error in if I look hard enough. I have formally studied theology and Greek. What I can’t crack in Greek and Hebrew, I have a pastor who can.

    It comes down, once again, to relationship. I have more effect now that I quit being the doctrine police than I ever did then. The people I have relationship with, those whom the Lord has entrusted to my care, I can speak into their lives and help them find truth for themselves.

    I would never presume to attempt to bring correction to someone who legitimately holds the office of Prophet or Apostle. Why? I do not hold either of those offices myself. Paul’s teaching was judged by the other apostles at Jerusalem. Paul taught the Corinthians that the other prophets were to judge the prophetic words given.

    I have far more effect taking what I see wrong to my Father and letting Him deal with His wayward child. The Lord has set up authority structures within the body of Christ and I honor that.

    I lead and teach those I am responsible for the truth as I know it. I talk to my peers about things they are doing and teaching that I question. Those outside of my sphere of influence that I have no relationship with, I pray for.

    Paul told his people to basically avoid those people who teach contrary to what he taught them. He very rarely named names in his epistles. And he never went after them. He left their judgment up to the Lord.

    Jesus was the same way. The apostles came to him and said these guys are preaching but they are not of us and asked if they should stop them. Jesus told them no.

  18. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 11, 2007 7:55 am

    As far as Swift goes, that was simply fun. There was a piece of equipment that needed to be delivered to the team before this conference started. I offered to take it and the office team prayed over me because I only been there a short period of time and where I was going was the other side of Phoenix through rush hour traffic. I was on a very tight schedule. They prayed for my safety, that I wouldn’t get lost and that the Lord would send Swift with me to help me to get there swiftly.

    I took off in early rush hour traffic in Phoenix. The traffic basically got out of my way. I was never slowed down. I was able to drive 70 mph all the way through Phoenix at 5pm and was never delayed. Anyone who knows Phoenix knows this does not happen.

    I don’t do angels. I can’t see them, I just know when they are there. Had my daughter been with me, she would have probably had a lively conversation with him. She does see them and has no hesitancy in engaging them in conversation when she does.

    The one I want to meet is Breakthrough Revival. I want him to come hang out with me for a while.

  19. endtimespropheticwords permalink
    August 11, 2007 10:08 am

    >According to who’s doctrine? Yours?

    There are some things that are very plain and cannot be denied. There is obviously some room to move on some points of doctrine, but there are also some teachings that can definitely be called wrong or heresy or apostate or destructive or dangerous or even antichrist because they go far beyond what can reasonably be interpreted in anybody’s translation of the Bible. You do not need a theology degree or to know Biblical Greek or Hebrew to figure these things out if you obey the Lord and test and weigh EVERYthing. The truth is in plain view for those who seek it with open hearts and minds. The Latter Rain’s teachings on Joel’s Army, Manifest Sons and man-child are such errant doctrines.

    >You don’t even recognize a direct quote of scripture from Acts about the return of Jesus.

    I am not sure what you mean by not recognizing it. Be specific as to what you mean?

    BTW, I never attacked your views on the second coming. I do not know YOURS. I pointed out the Latter Rain movement’s (and many of these men’s) beliefs. You said they did not contradict fundamentals of the faith. They do. That’s a big deal.

    I am not attacking you. Lose the persecution complex. I am trying to help you (and others) see clearly where there are faults with the NAR. I am saying where scripturally many things are wrong.

    >There is not a movement or denomination in existence that I cannot find doctrinal error

    Agreed. There is no perfect church. However where error exists it does need to be corrected. Where false prophets are repeatedly given the platform with no proper accountability it needs to be warned about. The false needs to be called false in order to let the truth thrive.

    >I would never presume to attempt to bring correction to someone who legitimately holds the office of Prophet or Apostle.

    You are on dangerous ground. So the only ones who can ‘judge’ C Peter Wagner and his band of elite are his own ‘gnostic round table’? That is not scriptural and you are then no better than the Roman Catholics who make the pope infallible when he speaks ex-cathedra. Who can then speak up about them? Can they then preach all sorts and no-one can speak up as only one of their prophets and apostles may speak up? If only prophets may judge them…now I am a prophet and I ‘judge’ them and I find them lacking. But I suppose you may counter with I am not ‘legitimate’ because I refuse to have anything to do with such men and their movement and have not been ‘knighted’ to the round table by either Joyner or Wagner? HOGWASH! I say hogwash! Wake up girl!

    We are ALL called to encourage, admonish correct and discipline each other.( Rom 15:14, Col. 3:16, 1 Thess. 5:14, Gal. 6:1) Not just the leaders or prophets or apostles. There is also a differance between ‘pastorally’ correcting someone and disciplining and speaking up about false doctrine.

    The Apostle Paul commended the Bereans – the normal pew fodder – for testing all he said and spoke on. They were not prophets and apostles yet they ‘judged’ him. And he blessed them and said ‘carry on, what a great thing to do, this is NOBLE of you. Not doubting, not critical, but noble.

    >Paul told his people to basically avoid those people who teach contrary to what he taught them

    This is why I find it surprising that Patricia King associates herself with the men I mentioned.

    >The one I want to meet is Breakthrough Revival.

    There is an angel of this name? Really?

    BTW, isn’t 70 mph over the legal speed limit?

  20. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 11, 2007 11:33 am

    Have you addressed these individual concerns to each of the minsters and ministries involved? Until you have communicated with them, you really have no biblical right to air them before the body of Christ. It is not until you have gone to your brother and been rejected, and taken another believer with you and been rejected, that you have the right to bring your concerns before the church.

    So my question is, have you followed biblical guidelines in addressing these issues? Have you contacted C. Peter Wagner and told him, “God told me you are antichrist and part of the end times deception?” What was his response?

  21. endtimespropheticwords permalink
    August 11, 2007 12:03 pm

    I believe you are referring to the time an individual sins against you personally when you talk to them one-on-one about it, then bring a friend etc if they do not listen, and then the church deals with them. The situation about false teachers and prophets or prophetic movements works differantly and one can openly criticise and warn the church as a body.

    No, I have not contacted Wagner or Cain. I have not confronted head-on the Pope, Joseph Smith, Judge Rutherford or David Icke either but I still stand against them and will speak up about them, as of course I should. Out of interest, have you confronted the ‘guy that founded the KJV only group who has been married four times?’

    I note you did not answer my latest points. A lot of these are addressed to YOU and not to Patricia King, Wagner et al.

    And what is the legal speed limit on the roads you drove at 70mph?

  22. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 11, 2007 12:41 pm

    >The situation about false teachers and prophets or prophetic movements works differantly and one can openly criticise and warn the church as a body.I am trying to help you (and others) see clearly where there are faults with the NAR. I am saying where scripturally many things are wrong.<

    And I am telling you that you cannot justify doing that according to scripture. You are attempting to step into the authority that God granted my pastor. You have no authority from God to bring correction to people you do not have oversight of nor relationship with.

    If you want to lay out the scriptural reasons for your disagreement with these things, that is a fine thing to do and I believe you have done so on your blog. To attempt to “bring correction” to the body of Christ or to individuals that you do not have oversight of is the grossest form of presumption. The only ones that I can see who have the right to do that in scripture are those who walk in a true apostolic office.

    When you walk in that presumption, you lose the protection of the Lord and open yourself for a different form of deception, the deception of self-righteousness.

    By the way, I have contacted some of these people with specific issues that I have. The issues and the resolution are private and not something that I would ever bring before the body. You are offended at them, therefore you are responsible to follow scriptural guidelines to resolve that.

  23. endtimespropheticwords permalink
    August 11, 2007 1:33 pm

    I am not attempting to being personal correction to either Cain or Wagner or Joyner (although I do not acknowledge it is only a ‘true apostle’ by your definition who can do so. If God ever tells me to go speak to them one on one, however, I will. ‘Who me?’ said Moses, David and Gideon and many others, and God said, ‘Go for I am with you.’ I do not think I am anything. I seek to obey God though and am learning not to ask ‘who me?’ when he calls and to obey and go and speak. YOU are in danger of self rightousness when you claim you have to be someone – in some role or recognised by some man or men – to bring God’s word or speak up about false prophets, false teachers or unrighteousness. God can use Balaam’s ass if He so wills.) I am warning the body about them and their errant teachings which is a HUGE differance.

    Are you saying I need to call up the Vatican to make an audience with the Pope to discuss his latest rubbish before I speak against it? Or go and speak with the LDS elders? Or the Watchtower organisation to speak against them? Nonsense!

    >You are attempting to step into the authority that God granted my pastor.
    >is the grossest form of presumption.

    Not true biblically. Did you look the scriptures I gave you up?

    >the deception of self-righteousness

    Because I speak up? Come, come now! I claim nothing for myself.

    The major problem with the NAR is its elitism and you have obviously been infected by this to the core. Satan has got you just where he wants you. What a shame. You are deafening your ears totally to the warnings – what are you so afraid of if you do test and weigh things? That you will find out that you have been ‘had’? Is your faith that weak that you need those sparklers or gold dust to be real and not a counterfeit or it all falls apart for you? Do you think yourself immune to deception?

    I am not being self-righteous for speaking up about error. I am doing the biblical thing.

    Now I have specifically spoken up about why I think Patricia King et al are erroneous, yet apart from you saying I should not speak up about it, and should take it to them directly instead, you have not answered my criticism.

    Do you or do you not still content that they believe the same fundamentals as ‘orthodox’ christianity? What is your response re in a differant second coming and rapture theology? The Latter Rain’s teachings on Joel’s Army, Manifest Sons and man-child are ok are they theologically?

    Is it ok for Bob Jones and Kim Clement to be recorded as being wrong numerously but to be still called ‘true prophets’. Is it ok for Joyner’s teaching to promote elitism and gnosticism?

    Now I have a concern about YOU claiming an angel (possibly) helped you break the law by going 70mph through Phoenix, hence me asking you several times what the speed limit was in the areas you went through.

    I have a concern about YOU not heeding the Berean Call, and making excuses why you should not do so, and should not speak up about it when found to be incorrect. I have a concern about YOU claiming that the fundamentals of the faith are the same from these teachers when they are clearly not – eg on the end times. I have a concern about you tolerating false prophets. I have a concern about you leading others astray because you are have not been wise. I pray that God opens your eyes, but I am not sure that you want to know the truth as the truth hurts.

  24. Rollan McCleary permalink
    August 11, 2007 5:13 pm

    While Patricia King is not Rahab or Jezebel and the idea of Extreme Prophetic as an alternative to New Ageism was meaningful I remain unimpressed by your case for Ms King and her associates some of whom say the most ridiculous things (like “God has declared bankrupt me with your demands this year”).

    I dare say there’s a lot of group spirit such as you describe but I suggest it’s limited in scope to Americans, those known or in pay covenants. I as good as have the proof.

    I can’t decently quote private mails but the fact is I have raised important issues with Ms King and as a published expert on same. I have emailed three times from abroad and not received so much as a line of polite acknowledgement even to just checking query was material received. Given what I wrote, the time spent, the seriousness of the issues I find no decency in the omission either to dialogue or just acknowledge.

    If you want to have some idea of what this about go to my Blog
    Rollan’s Censored Issue Blog
    at:
    http://rollanscensoredissuesblog.blogspot.com/
    and read (July archive) the article on the Michael Glatze story in its later section
    Patricia King and the Prophetic Syndrome that Won’t Answer
    And (August archive) The Bad Manners of Good Christians in its section on people in media.

    I suggest Ms King doesn’t reply not because she’s too busy but because she can’t be bothered to face whatever doesn’t please her. She herself has recently dismissed all criticism of herself as “witchcraft” which is wonderfully convenient and ridiculous superstition. Faced with critics (or is it just real life for?) she now considers herself involved in “a love war” with people – in short, renewing somewhat what sounds like her rather hippie past she will as good as throw flowers at people that don’t agree with her and feel good about it. Anything but deal with issues and face reality.

    Even if they don’t have my specific problems with Ms King some Christians interested in the prophetic are going inevitably to have a few problems with what sounds like at least implicitly a Dominionist theology that runs through a lot of forecasts that get onto her programme and which could undermine the messages and timetables of other prophets. Another issue is the way some truth about prayer or the Holy Spirit has hardly been stated than there is a another advertisement for buying the book or CD course that will make the holy point still better. This necessarily grates with many sensibilities. Then there are quite simply the declarations like a special blessing on first borns in 2007. It all sounds great and by the law of averages no doubt will be true for some, but speaking as a first born myself and thinking of others in the bracket I can report no truth in such claims. Extreme Prophetic is an interesting experiment and it makes some good points but too much of it is hype and hot air.

  25. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 12, 2007 2:25 am

    I had a chat with my pastor today about your position that you have a right to air you discernment about ministries without taking it to them first. He just laughed at your arguments. The biblical pattern holds. Until you have taken it up with your brothers, you do not have the biblical right to air your criticism of them in public.

    In the ministry I am a part of seeks to create a culture of honor. What you are doing is totally without honor.

    On of the things Patricia said in her video is that this group who is circulating this letter about her never brought their complaints to her first. She likewise considers those airing their grievances on the internet bound by the biblical principles.

  26. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 12, 2007 2:35 am

    Rollan, at least you took your concerns to Patricia. I don’t know why there was no response to your contact.

  27. Amber permalink
    August 12, 2007 9:37 pm

    Just wondering what group of people the email was written by? My mom and I have been trying to figure it out. We didn’t get the e-mail personally, but definately want to know who it was written by…or what group of pastors/prophets. thanks

  28. Kathrynn permalink
    August 13, 2007 4:51 pm

    Revelation is just that “revelation”, either you are allowed to see or you are not. I have learned the hard way that I want to see. The Bereans were commended because they searched the scriptures to see if it was so not to see if it wasn’t so. That may seem to be a little point but it is not. The scripture says “the sum of thy word is truth” Only by revelation can the understanding to know what that means. I feel sorry for you “endtime propheticwords person. I pray the Lord frees you from your mindset. You are missing an incredible blessing and causing many to miss out on what God is doing right now. The new wine never tastes good to anyone. But if you don’t except it you will also lose the old. Dangerous place.

  29. BWA permalink
    August 13, 2007 7:17 pm

    I am a christian who happens to be a geologist and I work with uncertainty in data sets all the time. Often in the world of science we see connections between things yet we do not know how these connections work, so till more research is done we simply say A results from B. Scientific papers are written on things like this and these papers are challenged regularily by peers. This peer review helps to develop new ideas and concepts. In the Christian world we deal with data sets that are very subjective and sometimes we have to use the relational method of judging these experiences. In this case we can only judge the fruit of the experiences. The trouble with this is that the fruit may take a long time to follow the experience, are we patient enough to wait? Doctrinal issues as well as para-scriptural experiences should be discussed by peers in a redemptive manner. It is a good thing a lot of the Old Testament prophets did not have to deal with the heresy hunters as they would have been stoned, for their odd experiences that could not be found in the Pentatuch. Just read the book of Ezekial.

  30. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 13, 2007 10:58 pm

    Amber, I have no idea who the group was or what it was they said. Extreme Prophetic has not released any of that information. They addressed what was said to some extent, but they have been careful to protect those who have done this. I think, actually, this is a striking example of what Patricia means by declaring a love war. She is walking in love toward these people and is actually protecting those who have attacked her. It is quite a different stance than is usually taken by ministries.

  31. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 13, 2007 11:02 pm

    Kathrynn, I agree. I just had a conversation about this with my pastor who challenged me on my understanding of “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” The Greek behind that is more accurately translated “Faith comes by hearing the word that Christ is speaking.” It has to do with the rhema word, the now word of God. Faith comes by hearing and obeying the word that the Lord is speaking to you right now. Revelation is vital to being able to walk with Jesus.

  32. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 13, 2007 11:05 pm

    BWA thanks for your comments. I think this is an important thing. We want to brand people false prophets because their word did not come to pass; that would make Jonah a false prophet because Nineveh was not destroyed in 3 days due to their repentance. Jesus hasn’t come back yet. Does that make the New Testament false because it speaks of His soon return? Time is the key. God is well able to protect both His word and His people. Time will show the true fruit.

  33. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 13, 2007 11:11 pm

    I have discontinued the conversation with endtimepropheticwords because, after discussion with my leadership, I felt that her refusal to address her “discernment” and “revelation” to the individual ministers and ministries was sin, as was her continued attack against these people via the internet. If I allowed that attack to continue here after asking her to address her issues directly to those she has called antichrist, deceivers and false prophets, then I would be partaking in her sin. I manage to offend the Holy Spirit often enough on my own without adding that to my life.

  34. Rollan McCleary permalink
    August 15, 2007 1:44 am

    While discussion here is still about XP, Ms King and doctrine isn’t something being left out ? I’m going to add the following to my previous comment about having no replies from Patricia to messages re what I considered broadcast disinformation. The missing theme is simply a proof factor.

    I have only today discovered that a prominent Chilean Pentecostal, Ricardo Cid who in April was supposed to be bringing down gold into his church which when tested was said to be false, in June was evicted from his church for allegedly debts in the millions of pesos.

    XP has been recording manifestations of all kinds, most recently in Puerto Rico of the twelve biblical jewels, not to say endless pourings of holy oil and even angels’ footprints. Has ANY of this been tested and if not why not? With Ricardo Cid in mind perhaps it should be as it all seems a bit over-the-top by biblical standards, somehow too neat. By anyway questioned can and should be something else.

    I am only an outside, overseas observer with no commitment to American churches or XP so my impressions are raw. I can only say that I had never terribly liked the vibe of the popular Bob Jones (at one time dismissed from ministry) who is one of Ms King’s Kansas City controversial prophetic supporters. In a recent video he says that when he used to be young, unchristian and drunk demons used to talk to him but once converted the angels did instead and he gets his prophecies from them. Well, I don’t deny angels could give prophecies but shouldn’t the forecasts normally come from Jesus or the Spirit if it’s not to become too close to dealing in spirit guides? I can’t condemn or dismiss Bob Jones outright but his statement confirms uneasy feelings I’ve had.

    While I and others who sound an occasional note of reality can get dismissed or ignored by Ms King as pushing “witchcraft” at her, she herself, however well intentioned is perhaps not always being guided by the best influences.

  35. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 15, 2007 7:18 am

    There was an open panel discussion on this at Growing in the Supernatural I in May. Joshua Mills has had some of this tested. Jewelers are confused about the composition of the stones. They are too perfect to be natural. Diamonds are classified according to the number of flaws found in them and the clarity of the stone. The stones Joshua had tested, according to the jewelers, can’t be naturally occurring because they have no flaws. They have no explanation for what they are.

    The composition of the “gold” dust varies. Some of it has tested out at 24 kt gold.

    The point that Patricia and Joshua both made was that these manifestations are signs, not provision. They are specific things pointing to Jesus. The thing about them is that they are a supernatural manifestation that points to the true treasure of Jesus.

    In my own experience, I could care less what the stone I have is made out of. It was given to me by my Father as a tangible reminder of a specific thing He spoke to me, as a hedge against the doubt and discouragement I have battled in this area for years.

  36. August 15, 2007 8:18 am

    Years ago I heard Dr. Jack Deere give the definition of a Pharisee – “someone who glorifies God for what He did in the past, looking forward to what He is going to do in the future, and OPPOSING pretty much everything He is doing in the future”.

    Having come out of the wing of the Church where all the ‘heresy hunters’ come from, what lies behind is FEAR. They are gripped by fear. They mask their fear behind such words as “discernment” and “balance”. At the end of the age, there will be those who move in Kingdom power and those who don’t have it will be the primary persecutors of those who do.

    How do I know this? Because as our ministry changed into a ‘powerless one’ that consisted of words alone, into a one that is characterized by healing, miracles and the manifest presence of God, we lost friends and Churches. False accusations were made (and still are). Would I change a thing? Absolutely not. The favor of God, and real Kingdom fruit is so much better than a personal relationship with a Study Bible – which tragically is the sum total of the experience many in the heresy hunter camp have. The Church existed and thrived for nearly 350 years without fixed canon of Scripture – and yet was able to remain largely unified, moving in Kingdom power and turning the Roman Empire upside down. Today with dozens of different translations, commentaries, ect. we have splintered into more than 50,000 denominations since the Protestant Reformation. All the while paying little to no attention to the Scripture that teaches that those who cause divisions WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom.

    As Pastor Bill Johnson so rightly states, “everyone is just one experience away from good theology”. May God give these ‘heresy hunters’ an encounter with Himself that will change them forever.

    Contending for the Faith once delivered,

    DJ

  37. August 15, 2007 6:10 pm

    Years ago I heard Dr. Jack Deere give the definition of a Pharisee – “someone who glorifies God for what He did in the past, looking forward to what He is going to do in the future, and OPPOSING pretty much everything He is doing in the present”.

  38. scott permalink
    August 17, 2007 7:17 am

    just a quick question..(in love and not to be sarcastic or angry) .. but those who negate the legitimacy likes of Bickle, Jones, Clement, Elijah List and so on.. Who are some that you have accepted as “truly walking in the fear of the Lord” .. I do ask this because I see so, so, so many sites when you run these names in a google search where they are crushed but never do they state who they believe truly are hearing from God. I think this is a worthy request concerning this issue.. what do you guys think?

  39. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 17, 2007 7:46 am

    Scott, I’ve asked that question a lot and have yet to receive an answer for it.

    I’ve asked, “Have you ever been to services run by these guys?” The answer is usually no.

    “Have you personally brought your concerns to these individuals?” The answer is usually no.

    “Have you ever spoken to these guys you are trashing?” The answer is usually no.

    I think it is a fair question. Who do the doctrine police accept as legit?

  40. Brendan permalink
    August 21, 2007 9:01 am

    I could point a finger at something I don’t understand and call it false, or I could blindly accept it. I refuse to do either. I don’t feel the peace of Christ coming from either side of this argument.

    I have not personally seen an angel, received a gemstone, or been covered with gold dust… but that doesn’t mean I automatically think it must be false.

    However, I feel like more discretion must be used in posting pictures and videos of the gemstones, gold/gem dust, and angels. Suffice it to simply SAY: gemstones have been falling, gold/gem dust appearing, people having angelic and divine encounters. Each one that HEARS can then seek the Lord on a personal basis concerning these things. Remember that faith comes by HEARING and we live by FAITH and NOT by SIGHT.

    Here is my personal struggle: What you do when you show these pictures and videos is instantly alienate people who see them and have not had the experiences themselves… because everyone knows in this age of technology that pictures and videos are no longer considered concrete evidence, too much tampering is possible, whether before or after the pictures are taken. Suffice testimony to inform and build faith, and let each one who lacks wisdom seek the Lord.

    Now, I am NOT implying that the signs in question are false. I am simply pointing out the first thing that is going to pop into someones mind who has not personally experienced this and just sees a picture of some stones, a whispy angel, or a thoroughly-glory dusted man: alarm. When you are not personally there to see the gemstone, dust, oil, feathers, or angel appear, there is cause to question whether what you are seeing in that picture or video is actually supernatural at all.

    Again, I am arguing ONLY against the posting of pictures and videos, not the signs themselves. I am also not suggesting that XP has posted false or altered images or videos. I have taken note of Patricia King’s apparent heart of love, and many people I know and who are close to me have personally experienced these signs and have blessed me with prophetic words of encouragement concerning my personal destiny that have been completely in line with what the Lord has been doing in my heart and in my life. All I am saying is that pictures and videos are not concrete evidence and will cause those who have not personally experienced such things to stumble.

    The Word of testimony will build faith concerning these things, then leave it to each one to test and seek the Lord on a personal basis, rather than throwing pictures and videos out there to those whom have not experienced such things. Such is throwing your pearls to the swine: revealing a precious and personal gift to those who potentially will not understand or appreciate it… and we all know what happens after the pearls have been thrown to the swine, and the fruit of that is seen in the conversation that is taking place here. One is turning to destroy another, and I have difficulty seeing who is in the right here.

    I consider myself, for now, to be like the swine in this situation, more than the pearl thrower, because I have not experienced and do not understand why God would do such things, and whether He is doing it. However, rather than turning to destroy you who have thrown the pearls, I am seeking God on this issue to know whether it is Him. I do not assume that my lack of experience with these things means that they are false. I have not been caught up to the third heaven, but that doesn’t cause me to disbelieve that Paul was caught up. I have not been translated in the Spirit from place to place nor have I walked on water, that doesn’t mean Stephen, Peter, and Jesus didn’t.

    One thing I know, I walk with the Lord and am filled with His Spirit. I have received words of knowledge and laid hands on the sick and ailing and the bound, and they were healed and loosed. The Lord our God and King has spoken to me through dreams and visions and His inner voice, all in ways that transcended my thoughts, emotions, understanding, and experience, pointing me to solutions I wouldn’t have known otherwise and going above and beyond (and often defying) my own emotions and understanding. I know that I am right with Him, and I have given myself completely over to Him, by His grace, power, love, and Holy Spirit operating in my heart, I am now ready to lose or gain or retain anything for His glory, I am now totally yielded to His purpose and to His crafting of my very inmost being, to be one who is pleasing to Him, serving the purpose He intended, in the inmost core of my being, and from there outward.

    This is the call of every believer.

    I personally believe that there is a reason that I have not experienced some of these signs. I think that God would have my faith in Him run deeper than that, at least for the time being. I believe that for now, He wants me to be faithful to
    Him for His sake, and His sake alone. Again, that is not to imply that these signs are false, but let the Body of Christ stop dividing herself. Let those with signs not push them on those without, because, like me, there may be a reason that some truly faithful believers go without. Let those without such signs stop finding reasons for fault and accusing. To me, tongues and prophecy are also signs (according to Paul, they are, to unbelievers and believers), as are the dreams and visions I have had. In addition to being useful for edification, direction, and intimacy with the Lord, they are a sign to me that he is with me and cares about me. If the Lord has more for me, and it is truly Him, and it is truly His desire for me, then I will receive it.

    But as for me, I will choose no side in this debate. I will not personally vouch for these signs, nor will I negate them. My only issue is with how these signs and wonders have been stewarded and paraded in a way that is not proper. Speak of them, testify, give God the glory he is due. Faith and praise will come through the spoken and written testimony of such things. The visual evidence of such things can only be readily accepted by those that have personally experienced them. I have no experience with such things. I will simply keep my mind and heart set upon the Lord, and I will seek Him. He surrounds me with songs and shouts of deliverance, and I know He cares for me. This ongoing debate over these signs has nearly torn me in half. Enough! This controversy and each one fighting for his or her own side will only destroy and be a cause for stumbling for many! Let the body take up the member it has lost. Remember that it is one body with many parts. Why do we bite and devour one another?

    If there are truly ways in which one party or another errs from scripture, this must be addressed on a large scale. Errancy from scripture cannot be accepted. Such things cannot be overlooked. But as for signs or no signs, that is in the Lord’s hands. We cannot cause or prevent a single one.

    Rahabsplace, I have a serious qualm with something you said in one of your posts, but I want to discuss this privately before I speak presumptuously. Please email me.

  41. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 21, 2007 10:38 am

    Brendan, I can understand your qualms about all this. I post the pictures and the video to encourage people who haven’t been around these manifestations not to be freaked out. Signs, as Patricia King said in a recent video, always point to Jesus. And, in reality, the people who don’t want to believe, wouldn’t believe if an angel walked up to them and hit them over the head.

    In a discussion I had with my pastor this weekend, he said something that struck me as being really profound. In psychology, it has been found that true intimacy is only developed where there is play. I thought about what I posted earlier about maybe part of this is that God wants to play with His kids. In light of what my pastor said, I think this may be very true. God has never wanted to be a God far off. He wants to be near us and to have relationship with us.

    I have walked for most of my Christian life without “seeing” and being surrounded by people who do. My daughter is a seer. That is really hard to deal with as a parent, having a child that walks in a spiritual reality that you do not. I have learned more about the ways of God from my child when she was 5 than I ever thought possible.

    God has always been really good to me about being able to see and experience things. There are a lot of things going on in the Body that I am not sure about. The first time I saw gold dust manifest was in a meeting with someone I absolutely trust. I know that this person knows the fastest way to lose the anointing is to fake something, and in reality, there was no way to fake what I saw happening. The same has been true about the prophetic and healing. God is so very good to us and if you want to know the truth, He’ll show you. Of course, if you have already closed your mind, He’ll leave you alone. God really doesn’t force Himself on people.

  42. Brendan permalink
    August 21, 2007 11:04 am

    You speak as if I don’t see simply because I do not see angels with my open eyes, or see gems and gold dust, but I do see. I have seen in dreams, visions, and trances, which have spoken to me in profound ways that skip over the human mind and understanding and get right to the heart and spirit. My intimacy with the Lord is sweet, intense, and spiritual. I only write this second comment because your response seems to neglect my seeing and hearing from God, my tasting of Him, and my intimacy with Him. I want to add to my previous comment that the Lord has made himself known to me and met me where I am and has been bringing me along to where He is, who He is, He is the goal — conformity with Christ. And I am always open to Him, even in this matter. What I am trying to stress is being a good steward of the sign and not being too quick to throw it out to people who will reject it and then turn on you.

    But far more importantly than that, I want to stress the unity of the body. If Satan is the accuser of the brethren and would seek to divide the Body of Christ over such things, then my banner will be Peace, Love, and Unity.

    If anyone thinks they are choosing sides, then they are in fact choosing the same side: division.

  43. Brendan permalink
    August 21, 2007 11:09 am

    Something to add on to my last post:

    If anyone thinks they are choosing sides, *WITHIN THE BODY OF CHRIST*, then they are in fact choosing the same side: division.

    Also, I understand you are on the defensive, but in your defense do not strike back, but turn the other cheek. I have seen some striking back in these posts, that is subtle pride and is dangerous. If you want to be beyond reproach, let your defense be love and humility.

  44. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 21, 2007 11:29 am

    Brendan, I apologize for implying that because you haven’t received a gem or seen some of this stuff that somehow you don’t have intimacy with the Lord. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    What I want to see and what I do see in people who have had these experiences is that they have more hunger for more intimacy with the Lord. That is what everything in the Christian walk is about – higher up and deeper in. You are not more spiritual because of an experience with the Lord. All of our interactions with Him should cause us to chase after Him more fervently and to be more determined to pour our lives out in service to Him.

  45. stephanie permalink
    August 23, 2007 7:28 pm

    Does anyone want to weigh in some scripture to support the appearance of these stones or oil? It says to test by the word of God. The only thing I could find was about Mannah from heaven and the quail that he fed them in the dessert with. I have read all the comments, but would enjoy studying scripture that supports this as a sign and a wonder. Thanks for helping me to better understand.

    stephanie

  46. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 23, 2007 8:23 pm

    Stephanie, you raise a good point. You won’t find scripture regarding the manifestation of oil and gems per se.

    But then again, you won’t find evidence in the Old Testament of someone walking on water, of people being healed by the shadow of a man or of people being healed because of cloths that were prayed over by an apostle. The early church only had the Old Testament to judge these manifestations by and they are not in there. Yet they accepted them fully as being of God.

    Isaiah 48:6-7 says, “From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you. They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, ‘Yes, I knew of them.'”

    1 Cor 8:1-3 says, “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.”

    The best way that I know to judge manifestations is what effect does it have on me? Does what is going on draw me into the heart of Jesus? Am I more passionate in my pursuit of him because of this experience?

    For me, I cried for 2 hours because of the love that I felt from the Lord when He gave me a stone. I don’t spend my time asking Him for more stones. I spend my time enjoying His presence and asking Him to show me what’s on His heart.

  47. ANNE WOODSON permalink
    August 25, 2007 12:14 pm

    AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!!! I AM CURRENTLY
    UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF THE PENTECOSTAL FAITH, HOWEVER
    I GREW UP IN THE BAPTIST AND SOUTHERN BAPTIST FAITH.
    FINALLY, A PERSON WHO RECOGNIZES WHAT I HAVE SEEN
    FOR YEARS, AND I AM SURE WE ARE NOT ALONE. THE
    COMMANDMENTS ARE TO “LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL
    YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL AND BODY, AND SECOND TO LOVE
    THY NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF” I DECLARE THAT THE BODY
    OF CHRIST WILL COME INTO THE FULLNESS OF HIM IN
    TOTAL PERFECT PURE LOVE THAT THE WORLD COULD SEE
    A CITY SET ON A HILL AND COME TO KNOW JESUS!!!
    IN HIS NAME!

  48. Steve permalink
    August 29, 2007 3:20 pm

    I find the endtimespropheticwords comment interesting. The Pharisees had the scriptures memorized, doctrinally the purest of their day and yet they missed their time of visitation and ended up crucifying the very one that they had supposedly longed for. Simeon in the temple was devout and knew the scriptures, but the difference between Simeon and the Pharisees was he was longing for the consolation of Israel. He was hungry for reality and a living encounter with the living Savior. There is a plumbline being set. The spirit of the antichrist denies Christ is come in the flesh. The enemy has no problems with a Christ locked up in history with no manifestation in His church after the time of the original apostles-his problem are believers that really by revelation know that Christ is living in them NOW. As signs and wonders increase and the reality of God’s presence becomes more tangible, the religous feel threatened and uncomfortable.
    I am also a subscriber to Patricia King’s e-mail and really appreciate and support the initial commentary.

  49. Kathrynn permalink
    September 23, 2007 9:53 am

    i had an interesting experience when I went to a conference with Mahesh and Bonnie Chavda. The Lord’s prescence was tangible and I felt the weight of His Glory on me so strong I could not stand. I was standing facing and all of the sudden I felt, like a shock, it all leave. I Stood up straight and heard this young women talking to someone and she said “This is all fake, everyones is putting this one, lets get out of here.” It was like a bucket of cold water went all over me and I had to shake it off. I realized the power of unbelief and what defilement it brings to the Holy Spirit. I think He was insulted.

  50. rahabsplace permalink*
    September 23, 2007 11:40 am

    Kathryn, I think you are right. Scripture says that even Jesus could not work miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief. It is a very serious thing to see the glory and call it demonic. Scripture says that you can be forgiven what you say against the Son of Man, but to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. People need to take that into consideration when they start blathering on about how this is not of God and that is not of God.

  51. BWA permalink
    September 26, 2007 5:25 pm

    I think it is important to see where these doctrine police come from. In the mid 80’s I became disillusioned with flakey doctrine and behaviour that I was seeing in the charismatic realm (word of faith & prosperity stuff) and I and some of my friends started to react feeling that things were going sideways. In a similar manner I am sure that many of the doctrine police started out with legitimate issues but became ensnared by a religious spirit. If you are hungry for God you will not let legitimate issues become stumbling blocks. My hunger for the Lord caused me to go beyond the issues that became stumbling blocks to some of my friends and I embraced the Renewal that happened in 1995 whereas my friends did not.
    I think it is important to listen to our critics as the Lord may be using them to bring about change in our lives (remember when David was fleeing Absalom he was cursed by Shimei, what was David’s reaction to the suggestion that Shimei be put to death?) I heard a teaching by Graham Cooke where the Lord revealed to him that the 3 individuals that called him a false prophet were being used of the Lord to shape his character. I read in a Morning Star journal where Rick Joyner was complaining to the Lord about all the websites that are attacking him all the time; the Lord’s comment was they were needed to help shape his character. This does not let these people off the hook but it should cause us to ask Lord “what are you trying to do in my life through this”. We also need to pray that the Lord help these people to get free of the snare of the religious spirit.

  52. Christine permalink
    December 21, 2007 6:42 pm

    Thanks so much for this information. I have just signed up for Extreme Prophetic and have been blessed to find this confirmation that I was being led in the right direction, especially in this time of ‘shaking all things’ that can be shaken. I am passionate about my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, THE Word. May he bless you for standing for His principles and His Glory.

  53. arabella permalink
    December 22, 2007 3:19 pm

    You seem to be deep in love with Patricia King ! Nice feelings, how well you are doing. And beside, you have intimacy with Jesus. Please explain me, why you always go to hear your pastor`s opinion and look for prophetic words from prophets, when you are intimate with Jesus ? Does your “Jesus” know less than men ?

  54. seb permalink
    December 27, 2007 10:04 am

    Hi !
    There are actually scriptures for the manifestation of oil and gold : the widow of sarepta, when visited by Elijah, had her oil jar supernaturally refilled. And Peter caught a fish i which he found a gold coin.

    I’m willing to learn to love Jesus and others more and more.
    When signs come along, i’m just happy =)

    Thank you very much for this website, done in love and humility.
    I appreciate that.

    Love, in Him

  55. arabella permalink
    December 30, 2007 7:14 pm

    There is a verse matching best:
    Rev. 17,3
    “THe woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, glittering with gold and precious stones and pearls…

  56. Jerry Bender permalink
    January 10, 2008 12:11 pm

    This is from the Senior Pastor over at Gilbert Vineyard, Vineyard Christian Fellowship not far from Maricopa. I don’t know if Patrica was over there at the meetings…

    Dear Friends:

    I want to share some things with you about the “gemstone” phenomena that occurred in our services last Sunday. For those of you who weren’t here, this past weekend, Crossfire Ministries (headed by Don Pirozok) sponsored some meetings with Glen Smith from the state of Washington. For the past year and half Glen has been experiencing gemstones appearing in his home and in meetings where he has shared the testimony of how he came to Christ and how God spared his life from a suicide attempt.

    Glen attended our Sunday morning services and spoke in the Crossfire meeting that night. In both our Sunday morning services and in the Crossfire meetings a number of gemstones appeared.

    I received a call from Don Pirozok today (Wednesday) informing me that a couple of people observed Glen “planting” or “dropping” some gemstones in some of the meetings that took place over the weekend. (He was not seen doing this in our Sunday morning services to my knowledge). Don and some of his leaders confronted Glen about this and he acknowledged that he had in his words, “seeded” some of the gemstones in the meetings. As a result, Glen will not be involved in the Crossfire meetings scheduled for this weekend and is being referred to his pastor in Washington for counsel and discipline.

    I am very sorry to report this to you. It is a tragedy anytime something like this happens. It’s understandable why some people would write the whole thing off as a fraud. And yet there are a number of things that happened related to the gemstones which still defy a natural explanation – like the “flecks” or small stones that “grew” into larger gemstones in people’s hands. This happened to two or three different individuals in our church and there were several people who also witnessed it. In addition some people in our church who I’ve known for years (including members of the pastoral staff) found gemstones in places that had been empty only moments before where no one was around to “drop” or “plant” them and I received more than one report from members of our church that stones they collected multiplied (i.e., there were more in their pocket or container when they counted them again). One staff member told me they counted very carefully and when they showed a friend what they had found they discovered there were two more stones in the group than the ones originally collected.

    So, the bottom line for me is that I don’t have a satisfactory natural explanation for everything that happened with the gemstones on Sunday, but I do know that some of it was fraudulent and I believe integrity demands that we communicate this.

    The bottom line is that extra-biblical phenomena should never be our focus. As we pursue Christ, proclaim His message, and participate in His ministry, I hope we can remain open to whatever God desires to do (even if we don’t understand it) and do so with honesty and integrity. That’s what we’ve tried to do here and the reason for this email.

    In His Love,

    Jack Moraine

  57. Jerry permalink
    January 11, 2008 5:34 pm

    Rahab,

    Have you ever considered that just MAYBE you are denying another part of the body? That just maybe you are the hand or heart saying the head or brain is not necessary because it is not just like you? Why create a false division where there is none in the body of Christ? If they see a division it doesn’t mean you should agree or see one. Like Paul say Praise God the word is going forth even if it is hostile to you or for their own ends.

    And,…I’m not sure if you’ve been hurt by these ‘people’/’brothers and sisters’ before but you speak pretty harshly about them being ‘doctrine police’ and judging them while at the same time you don’t like them judging you. Amazing. Is it only sinful/religious pride to judge others based on doctrine/the Bible or can you be a sinful judge annd religious proud because of an experience you had? I have too say that as far as ‘doctrine’ goes (which simply means “teaching’ or belief or standard that you have just as much ‘doctrine’ you are pushing by saying all those who disagree with you are wrong. “we have met the enemy, and he is us.”

  58. rahabsplace permalink*
    January 21, 2008 4:01 pm

    Jerry,

    Thank you for forwarding the report of fraudulent activity. It saddens me when ministers fake manifestations because it throws doubt upon the validity of every manifestation. But it is very important that all such activity be exposed and that ministries have the integrity to publicly report these things for the protection of the body.

    Rahab

  59. rahabsplace permalink*
    January 21, 2008 4:12 pm

    Jerry,

    For me, the doctrine police are those who cannot have a rational conversation about their beliefs and who want everyone to toe their line of doctrine. I believe there are very debatable points in scripture and it is wrong to take a dogmatic line on them. For example, the timing of the rapture. Taking a dogmatic stand on a word that doesn’t even appear in scripture is not the brightest thing to do. The same is true of the debate on free-will versus predestination. Both are clearly taught in scripture. To exclude one in favor of the other is not good. Yet both extremes are defended to the death by their adherents. Cessation of the gifts of the Spirit is another great one. Even my New Testament professor, a Baptist, had to admit there is no real scriptural support for that belief.

    What I call the doctrine police are those within the body of Christ who feel it is their God-ordained mission to correct the rest of us on debatable points. There are things in scripture that are non-negotiable, such as the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, born of a virgin, etc. When He is coming back is not in the same category.

    Another point. As you grow in your relationship with the Lord, you will find yourself changing your position on things as your relationship grows and your understanding of both the Word of God and the workings of His Spirit deepen. Be gracious. You never know which of your words you are going to have to eat later on.

  60. riverkid05 permalink
    February 24, 2008 1:40 pm

    Its all about the heart…….

  61. mattpenna permalink
    February 29, 2008 11:30 pm

    Dear Rahab,

    Thank you for sharing your experience with Extreme Prophetic. I recently have come to know Jesus and have been exploring what is available online to add to my experience and understanding.

    I first learned about Patrica King first in an interview on the Elijah List. Her energy and passion for the Word is infectious. So when you gave your account, it made perfect sense. It made me happy to know that Jesus’ commandment to, “Love one another” is truly being practiced.

    Thank you for confirming that for me.

    May God Bless you,

    Matt

  62. DEMON SLAYER permalink
    April 4, 2008 11:06 pm

    TOUCH NOT THE LORDS ANOINTED!!
    PATRICIA KING AND EXTREME PROPHETIC, are aware of the price that comes with being in ministry, Jezebel tries to come against the Lords prophets/prophetess’s….

    Praise God that Patricia and Ron and Extreme Prophetic are VERY strong in God and very strong in warfare….

    these are the last days folks, and if you are in right standing with God (as Patricia King etc are) there will be persecution.

    Those who persecute will NOT prevail, and will have to answer to God for every single attack they came against Patricia with.

    KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK PATRICIA AND TEAM!!
    your in my prayers!

    KM, new zealand

  63. D Curran permalink
    April 7, 2008 11:07 am

    Hi,
    I can assure you that we’re living in the last of the last days. Just as the religious spirit and the spirit of jealousy put Jesus on the cross, they will also put the bride on the cross, but of course the bride is expecting this, because she choses to pick up her cross herself, and follow her bridegroom where ever He leads her! In the early church there were signs and wonders and miracles and that did not stop the persecution, but actually accelerated it. It is no different in our day.

    I have seen real blood on the moon and not just in a vision. These are the last days and there is no longer a fence to sit on, you will be found on one side or the other. When the wheat is ready for harvest, it is golden ripe and it is bowed over because of the weight. However the tares stand hovering over the wheat and the color of the fruit is grayish. You are either about to bear good fruit or bad because the time of the harvest is very very near. A time of sobering reflection and soul searching. It is not too late to repent yet, but soon it will be… May the Lord of Harvest have mercy, and those who show mercy will find mercy! God bless

    I love the character I see in Patricia King and many others that I am just now finding out about! My spirit bears witness that the Holy Spirit is in them and doing these works.
    It is more dangerous to say these works are of the devil than it is to say that the works of the devil are of God. If you remember how Jesus rebuked the religious leaders for saying that the source of the works Jesus did were from the devil, and Jesus plainly told them that it was a sin that was not forgivable. Better to leave this alone (signs an wonders) than to offend God in this way in my opinion. Perhaps I didn’t understand what Jesus meant, but that is what it sounds like to me. The religious leaders were saying that Jesus source was the devil. Is that not what many say of these signs and wonders. I would be fasting an praying and getting a REAL word from God before I said anything about this. I have prayed and fasted as well as attended a meeting where some of these signs occurred I am confident that these signs are from God and are good! Yes the lying signs are coming! But perhaps not in the way that people perceive that they will come? Why is it that the anti-christ signs will be so widely accepted? A lying sign will point to something other than the Risen Saviour, Jesus Christ!

  64. D Curran permalink
    April 7, 2008 11:26 am

    Hi,
    Maybe I should re-write my comment….let me know ok!
    I don’t want anyone to be under any condemnation, but I feel people need to also be warned to be careful how they handle these signs. You can edit my comment if you like, I give you my permission! God bless

  65. rahabsplace permalink*
    April 7, 2008 6:30 pm

    Not a problem with your post. I get it. You might want to look at my post on Some Thoughts on Gemstones to see my take on some of the manifestations.

  66. April 10, 2008 9:54 am

    Thank you! I’ve been listening to Patricia’s teachings and they are transforming me into an instrument God will use! Powerful and she is so humble and teachable herself. That’s a true servant of God!

  67. Dale permalink
    April 17, 2008 2:00 pm

    Thanks for a kind defense of Patricia King.

  68. chris cinneen permalink
    April 21, 2008 7:00 am

    you nailed it
    i have lowered it to the least common denominator
    you are either gathering or scattering
    these ministries are gathering and that is enough for me in Jesus to love them
    blessings chris

  69. Kendall permalink
    May 4, 2008 9:50 pm

    Just want to correct a common misrepresentation you’ve made in your post. There are Southern Baptists who are cessationists. This is a personal conviction and not a mater of consensus among Southern Baptists. You will not find cessationism expressed in the Baptist Faith & Message, the unifying statement of Southern Baptist faith. Essentially the BF&M is silent on the matter of the gifts of the Holy Spiirit and consequently their is freedom of conscience on this matter. Of course if you are in a Southern Baptist church that has a cessationist pastor or leadership that will flavor the whole church. However, I am a Southern Baptist and I believe in the perpetuity of the spiritual gifts and I am not alone. Certainly there is a conservative element among Southern Baptists who might like to make cessationism a matter of statement of faith. If they are successful they will alienate a large number of constituents who are either charismatic or leaning that way.

  70. rahabsplace permalink*
    May 4, 2008 9:56 pm

    The 2000 Faith and Message removed the statement regarding freedom of conscience. I know a number of Southern Baptists who left the convention over that very fact. The former Faith and Message allowed SBs that freedom on disputable issues (things like the gifts of the Spirit and such). It is my understanding from reading the 2000 F&M that that is no longer the case.

  71. May 15, 2008 2:16 pm

    Thank you.I am so tired of the anti-this and that websites that call everyone heretics.It really gets old.And the KJV only people are nuts.Yeshua spoke Hebrew,right?

  72. Dave Richardson permalink
    May 24, 2008 11:40 pm

    Where has all this dirt come from? I myself have been drawn into just as I was getting ready to go to Florida for the revival and canceled out. I have heard alot about the Kansas City Prophets and much of it if true is heresy. What I read about William Braham is really wacky check it out for yourself. I really don’t know about Todd Bently. I know and he self admits that he was a sex offender before he knew Jesus. The thing about calling the Angels by name like Emma is of little more concern because defrocked Bob Jones says it was the same spirit that started the Latter rain and the KCP movements. As far as Patricia is concerned my spirit discerns that she truly has a deep love for Jesus and her and her team street witness to the lost. That in and of itself says alot. I wish this controversy would all go away but unfortunately it is tied to the end time Church of Laodacia. While TBN, DAYSTAR, and THE GOD TV promote much that is good and beneficial. Their is a lot of Bad Doctrine when it comes to raising money. They talk about being obedient to the Lord by giving to their net works. And they waltz around issues Like I heard Rory Alec say many times before they went to pray for people in the upper room of their TV station in Israel about not standing before the Lord with empty hands.
    Of course money is the only thing they want you to send them…You could stand before the Lord with a clean heart, with Charity and love that you have helped others with, with the gift of being a peacemaker between brethern, with feeding the orphan and the widow by donating food, and many other Christian fruits.
    The Lord clearly let me know through the Holy Spirit that the time of cleansing the temple is coming soon. He is going to throw those out of the temple that have made merchandise of the flock. Don’t Feed the sheep partially, they will die. Jesus wants us all to love one another even as he loved us and that also means praying for those whose doctrines seem wrong to us. But it has taken on a life of its own to the point where their is about a civil war about to break out within the Church as it has before. Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox were the only Christian Churches that survived a thousand years before they offically split in the eight hundreds. Many doctrinal differences arose and they called each other names and anti christs on both sides. Some warfare came from this. When the reformation came and the clergy of the reformed Church gave over the punishment of heretics to the civil authorties it became just as bad as some bad popes. Eventually, the thrity years war ensued and hundreads of thousands died in the name of doctrine… Not about who was Christ but of how we understood how and what was the right road to salvation…
    Jesus wept..I once meet a man named Reverand Wurmbrand. He refused to wear the hammer and sickle on his Lutheran robes. The torchered him for Christ unmercifully. He got away and snuck bibles into the Eastern Communist Countries for years. Occasionally being jailed and torchered repeatedly. He said in a Pentecostal Camp Meeting to a group us young folk in 78 that it did not matter whether you were a Roman Catholic, a Lutheran, a Methodist, or a Baptist what really mattered was that Christ preceives the heart above all things. See you can go to whatever Church but the bottom line is do you love God above all things to the point where you are willing to be torchered and die for your faith. Note: Lutherans still belive in the doctrine of transubstanciation( the wine and the bread are transformed into the body of Christ just like the Roman Catholics) If pressed most priest would tell that it is the supernatural body of Christ which is made of the spirit not the flesh because they know well that the flesh profit no man.Plus Lutherans don’t have the concept of saving born again prayer. You are baptised into the faith. So by whatever means people are converted to faith in Jesus and that is what it is really all about because Jesus changes us when and however we come to that point in our lives when we surrender to him completly. I can’t do this Lord please change me. He is the ladder to heaven. Some preach enternal security even if you kill six million jews you are still saved. Hogwash that smells of insincerity when you made a covenant between you and God.So then when the Devil comes into the Church it is to kill, mame, and destroy. But he can appear as an Angel of light just like during the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trails. The bible says that ” the time will come when men will kill you thinking they offer service to God.” I myself will test the spirits and if something is in error I will seek first the Kingdom of God and then tell my brother or sister what error I see. But I will do it in love and pray to God that he has removed the beam from my eye before I try to remove the splinter from my brothers. You must walk with Jesus and take up your cross daily if you want to be his disiple. Needless to say their is a great cleansing through love that is needed through out the Church. Love one another! Devil in the Greek means separater. and we know that all confusion comes from the devil. The way the devil destroys churches is by back biting, attacking and oppressing Pastors and making everyone fall upon everyone else and soon there is no love left just hatred. A house divided against itself cannot stand. I love Patricia King as a good Christian, and will pray for her that any confusion or trick of the devil will not come into her ministry ever. And all of you who pray should do the same thing. Give it to the Holy Ghost and he will cleanse the iniquity if that is what some of these stranger manifestations are. We are not powerless but powerful seek the full council of God in accordance with the scriptures and pray!

  73. rahabsplace permalink*
    May 25, 2008 10:36 am

    I am sorry that you canceled out on going to Lakeland. You have to see what is going on there for yourself to believe it. I have posted extensively about the revival and Todd elsewhere. I have been to Lakeland and I have never seen such hunger for the Lord Jesus in my 25 years as a Christian.

  74. May 31, 2008 5:16 pm

    Rahab, I have read several of your posts and am impressed with what you have to say. Several days ago I heard about Todd Bentley and was very excited to learn more about his ministry, only to then become alarmed, especially with the angel named Emma. My spirit was very alarmed when I read about the angel, I will remain reserved, but am quite concerned it is satanic. After doing some research and then watching video clips of Todd Bentley and reading about some things he had to say, I became more and more alarmed. Quite frankly, I still remain reserved about him, I appreciate you writing about Patricia King. I have read so many alarming things about her that I was quite reserved. You have a lovely spirit about you and I feel less reserved about many of these other prophets after reading several of your posts. Foremost, I know the heart of God and the passion he has for his people. When I understand nothing else, I look for the passion and the compassion these people have for others. I know God continually pursues us and desires for us to draw closer and closer. I know that I cannot fathom the depths of God. I cannot put him in a box and say what he will or will not do. My own testimony, God could have dealt with discipline and harsh blows to teach me humility, especially when I opened my mouth and said God told me something that turned out to be wrong. Instead, he dealt with me softly and gently. He worked on my heart over time until I came to realize the truth. A week or two after I recognized that I was wrong, I received the confirmation that I had been indeed wrong. Instead of having my pride crushed and dashed, instead of having my legs struck from beneath me, God had dealt with me in a gentle and loving way that i had never experienced before. (My mom would pray and promise me that God would strike me down and teach me a lesson and I was quite fearful of this). Though I had been saved and been pursuing God for years before, it was only then that my heart was opened and for the first time I truly understood His heart and truly understood love. God knew my fragile heart needed love and gentleness. God did not whack me with the truth, God gently taught me truth. His love is what set me free and transformed my heart. From that day on I saw the world and people in a different light. I do know God, I know I am a child of God and His Spirit is within me. I don’t have all the answers and certainly have some trepidation around Todd, Patricia and others but if I look at their Jesus and see the same Jesus… at least that is a start. I haven’t experienced too many supernatural events. I haven’t experienced gold dust or gems. I have experienced the love of God and I absolutely feel his passion for people. I feel his longing to set people free, his longing to transform the hearts and minds of people. This I know is truth. When hearts and minds are being transformed, when people are understanding the great and awesome love of God, when people start understanding who they are in Christ and start confidently talking about how they are sons/daughters of God who has Christ in them, instead of talking about how they are just a lowly sinner saved by Grace… then I know they truly have encountered God and Truth. I am anxiously pressing in and may God reveal himself to me how he best sees fit. He always has and I can count on that he always will.

  75. June 10, 2008 4:10 am

    wow, this was a timely find, thanks for sharing your experience with Patricia and her ministry. I especially love the end quote, “..if you have a right heart and wrong doctrine, God will fix your doctrine, but if you have right doctrine and a wrong heart, He can’t do anything for you.” That’s intense, but it goes to show God is after our hearts, more than anything He wants our hearts to be so in Love and in awe of Him.

  76. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 10, 2008 9:05 am

    Thanks, Lydia. Jesus loves us so very, very much. He is not willing that any should perish and is so willing to lead us and draw us into truth.

  77. Douglas K. Adu-Boahen permalink
    June 28, 2008 4:31 pm

    Well I would like to comment if I may. I have serious concerns when I read articles like this about doctrine. Doctrine, contrary to public belief, isn’t so bad. Jesus Himself said that if anyone desired to do the will of Father God, he would know of the doctrine (Jn 7:17).

    I think that there are doctrines that all can agree on – the authority of the Bible, the Trinity, the deity of the Lord Jesus, the centrality of the Bible for faith and practice. Going beyond that is entering a minefield, and it is my humble opinion that King and her associates when they disregard actively engaging doctrinal issues, they add fuel to their own pyre.

  78. rahabsplace permalink*
    June 29, 2008 1:57 am

    Doctrine, to a large extent, depends on what lenses you use to look at scripture. For example, if you hold to cessationist theology, then your theological lenses show you that all gifts and miraculous interaction of God with His people stopped. When you look at anything Patricia is doing through those lenses, everything she does and virtually everything she believes is doctrinally unsound and demonic. God doesn’t do these things anymore, Patricia claims to operate in these gifts, therefore her ministry is empowered by demons.

    Another example of doctrinal lenses has to do at which grid you look at scripture through has to do with women. If you look at scripture through the lens of 1 Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent, then women can do nothing within the church. If you look at scripture through the lens of Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus, women are free to do virtually anything. Both are valid scriptures and both form the foundation of theological grids.

    Doctrine is important, but the question is whose? Patricia’s has been deemed to be sound upon examination by theologians and those whom she is in relationship with.

  79. Edie Chill permalink
    July 26, 2008 12:58 pm

    2 Peter 1: “18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto you do well that you take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke moved by the Holy Ghost. Chapter 2: 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as ther shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.”
    Comment: OUR sure word is scripture. Not a voice from heaven. When someone claims to be a prophet or teacher, the very best test is to follow the money trail. Peter said they would be after your money because their motivation is greed. He also said that they (the false prophets and teachers) would cause the way of truth to be evil spoken of.

    1 Thess. 5: “21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.”
    Comment: there is a lot of appearance of evil with some of the ministries mentioned in this blog

    2 Timothy 4: “2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.”
    See also 1 Tim 1:4, 1 Tim. 4:7, Titus 1:14 and 2 Peter 1:16 for more on fables.
    Comment: what is a fable? Answer: made up stories. There is a LOT of that going around: stories about angels, visions, supernatural experiences, visits to the third heaven, gold dust, gold teeth, feathers, oil, blood, gem stones, smells, feelings. Carnality! Experiential knowledge! Sensual! (of the 5 senses) Satisfying the lust of the flesh. Don’t you see the enemy at work here? He is drawing away from the “more sure word of prophecy”. The Word of God, and not our “experiences” is to be trusted. God gave “experiences” to the Israelites because they were unspiritual. Unspiritual means, unable to perceive anything by the spirit. They were dead, spiritually speaking. God is a Spirit, and whoever would worship Him must do it in spirit and truth. His Word is truth. People of God, listen to me. He does not want you to be led by experiences. It is dangerous territory. It is the only territory the devil has to work in. Your “experience” is not a reliable evidence of God. Your “feelings” are very easily manipulated. Don’t you all realize this truth? Your feelings are fickle. God is Spirit. You do not need a manifestation of His presence. You have the truth of His Word. Whatever it says in His Word is true, whether you “feel” it or not. This is sound doctrine.
    Colossians 2:18 “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
    I see that Endtimes has been banned from this blog, and I am sorry for that. I think she is a true prophet, speaking the truth, pointing to the authority of scripture in a time when many Christians are using subjective measures and a lack of understanding the truth and thereby unable to discern error, to undermine the true beliefs of the faith. God did everything “in Christ” when He hung on the cross. It IS a finished work. God is not “doing a new thing”, the devil is “doing an old thing”. And you are all (those of you who follow these purveyors of fables) falling for it. Endtimes is exposing their “doctrines of demons”, and you are defending them. There was given a prophecy by Samuel Fordsham in 1965. I am not an experienced blogger, so I don’t even know how to provide you with a link to it. I read it 3 times last week. He spoke concerning the end time deception that was coming to the Church. Something I found to be very enlightening. He said that the ones who would introduce the deception would be trusted men and women of God who had had a track record of teaching the truth before they would introduce their heretical teachings. They would already have your confidence. And when they would start to teach the heresies, you would have a little twinge, but dismiss it because, after all, they can be trusted. The Lord used that revelation to show me how many whom I used to hold in high esteem, and now I have “nagging” concerns about because of some of their teachings and tactics (for raising money), are no longer following Him. AND, I can clearly see that the common denominator is $$$.

  80. rahabsplace permalink*
    July 27, 2008 4:52 am

    Eddie please show me in scripture that God gave Israel “experiences” because they were carnal.

    God Himself was present with Israel in the desert. He is not an experience. Israel simply experienced God. Huge difference there.

    You act like experiences are bad things when scripture is the history of God interacting with man and man experiencing God. God came to Adam to walk with him, he didn’t drop a book on Adam so Adam could read about things God used to do but doesn’t do anymore.

    God initiated mankind’s experiences with himself. They have always been his idea.

    I decline to allow Endtimes to post here because she has not followed scripture in her so-called discernment. She has not taken her words to those they are about. She has posted them for the world rather than following the clear teaching of scripture to deal with her brothers privately first. Her response was:

    “The situation about false teachers and prophets or prophetic movements works differantly and one can openly criticise and warn the church as a body.

    No, I have not contacted Wagner or Cain.”

    Her rational is unscriptural, so she does not post here.

  81. Edie Chill permalink
    July 29, 2008 10:13 pm

    Rahab,
    You ask me to show you examples from scripture God giving Israel “experiences” because they were carnal. Everything God did for Israel, and every contact He had with them was in the carnal realm. Keep in mind that carnal means of the flesh, or of the 5 senses. They heard God with their ears (and it sounded to them like thunder), they saw God (with their natural eyes) appear to them as a pillar of cloud or a pillar of fire, they “experienced” all of His works through their 5 senses. You say

    They did not experience God actually; they experienced a physical manifestation of God. They could not experience God firsthand because they were flesh and He is Spirit. Big difference from experiencing God spirit to Spirit like we do. When Adam and Eve fell, immediately “the eyes of them both were opened.” What eyes is this speaking of? We know that their physical eyes had to have been open and able to see before this. And yet, they were not aware that they were naked. And we know this is not referring to “spiritual” eyes, because they had just died spiritually, so those eyes were closed. So what eyes were opened? I believe this is referring to the eyes of their heart, or their conscience, because as a result, they realized that they were naked, and it made them ashamed. And in addition, they HEARD the voice of the Lord God WALKING in the garden. What does this mean? Does a voice walk? AND, hearing that voice made them afraid. They were no longer experiencing God spirit to Spirit; they were now experiencing a strange new thing; an audible voice, coming through their ears. It was foreign to them. Previously they had heard the creation through their physical ears, but God…..they heard Him inside. Now everything was different.
    This is what I mean when I say that God gave Israel “experiences” because they were carnal.

    Based on what I stated by way of explanation above, experiences for those who have ben born again and are now spiritually alive, move from a sense realm to the spirit realm. You know what I am talking about Rahab, please do not make make me explain. The whole world is trying to contact God through their senses. I don’t need God to manifest Himself to me in a physical manner, because I can hear Him with the ears of my heart (because my heart has been changed by Him), I can see and perceive his presence with the eyes of my understanding, I can taste Him from the invisible evidence of His working on my behalf in my everyday routines, and KNOW that He is indeed good. I feel Him every time I study His Word and discover a new tidbit of truth, or share His love with someone going through a trial. I know He is with me, as close as my breath, and I have peace. I have never seen God with my natural eyes. I have seen Him with the eyes of faith. And those eyes do not lie. (we walk by faith and not by sight) Time after time the Israelites saw and were blessed by physical manifestations of God; manna, quail, water, supernatural defat of their enemies. And time after time they rebelled, and forgot, and hardened their hearts against Him. Oh, and God did not have a “book” to drop on Adam. That “book” is called The Word of God, and it is really a person, and His name is Jesus, and God started “dropping” Jesus on Adam from that point on.

    My whole point in bringing these things up is this. I believe that in a certain segment of Christianity, there is a strong emphasis on signs, wonders and miracles. So much so, that anything will do. Jesus warned against this. He said that an evil and adulterous (someone who is not happy with who they are married to and goes out to find someone else) generation seeks for a sign. We are told that the antichrist will come with lying signs and wonders.

    Rahab, you said in your post, that your personal observations of Patricia King were that she was a woman who walked in love toward everyone, and her character was above reproach. I do not dispute that, and say that is a very commendable testimonial of her, but it in no way can be the ONLY criteria used to judge her genuineness as a servant of God. Some (not all) of her doctrine (teaching) is not substantiated by the Word of God. Her experiences are questionable, even bizare. Her associations, as stated by Endtimes, is what really makes her suspect. This bunch of people she hangs with is off the charts. I don’t even want to go there. If anyone is interested, just go to YouTube and type in her name. Or go to her website. Oh, that reminds me, about her logo for Xtreme Prophetic. Don’t you think it odd that a Christian ministry’s logo would look like a lop-sided cross with a blue flame above it? You don’t need to look far to find out that a blue flame is related to witchcraft. It is no accident. I agonized over choosing a logo for my business. She knew what she was doing. She knocked the cross of Christ over and I don’t like it.

    One more thing before I close. You I think the scripture you quoted was Matthew 18. You even consulted with your pastor. Well, both you and your pastor are wrong in your application of this scriptural rule to be used in Endtimes case. This scripture is dealing with personal relationships with individuals who know each other, within the local church. This also does not apply to disputes over doctrinal issues. It is dealing with wrongs committed against one person by another person. Read it again. An example of this can be found in 1 Cor. 5. (the man fornicating with his father’s wife……and enjoying the fellowship of the brethren at the same time, no less!) Paul told this local church to break fellowship with him, thereby turning him over to satan (where he will really feel the heat) in the hopes of bringing this man to his senses so that his soul will be savd. Oh, could I preach on this one. Anyway, Paul handled the situation of the false prophets in the body of Christ quite differently. You can read in several epistles where he mentions the heretics by name, and describes the reason for their apostasy. I think the one scripture that best describes what Endtimes is doing, is found in Acts 20:29-31, “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 20 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I CEASED NOT TO WARN EVERY ONE NIGHT AND DAY WITH TEARS.” She is doing the warning. I think her motives are pure, because she has nothing (monetary) to gain by doing so. And I pray that God will see that the warning is heard.

    Thank you, Rahab, for the opportunity to share my insights and perceptions with your constituency. I hope that I have stated my position in a way that is clear to you and your readership. We must love the truth, even if it topples some of our sacred cows.

  82. Randy Kersch permalink
    July 31, 2008 1:11 pm

    Well, lets be honest about theology and doctrine. If you want to takes pieces of the Bible and tape them together you can come up with anything. The problem I have with these movements ….(prophetic/later rain movement) is it should all be and about God and Jesus. Frankly all of my friends that have fallen into this mess….spend hours going on and on about all these signs and wonders. Now to be honest I really believe in power evangelism, but all the power moves should point to Him and be purposed in knowing more and deeper. Which actually leads us not to “Angels”, which are Gods servants, but the real test is are we taking real pains for self examination. I think the way this stuff is portrayed is a BAD thing. Jesus had no materials goods, gee that used someone elses robe to wrap him in…. most of the leadership of the fellowship lost their lives in following. “unless a grain falls”. Well folks if you’ve dug deep enough you do know about polarization and the extreme opposites of the Christian movement. There is a safe haven. A place that brings completeness, and its not in the manifestations. Its from start to finish about our relationship with him and with his Body and with the lost. We don’t need fortunetellers if we have HIM. One last word, by the way, I pray in tongues, I believe that all who practice LOVE (God’s highest good and best for His Kingdom) are truly filled and moved by the Spirit. It is a EVIL WICKED and Perverse generation that spends their time seeking a SIGN. Thank you Lord you are the real SIGN and wonder.

    Randy Kersch
    Spencer NE

  83. Sergei permalink
    August 20, 2008 2:48 am

    I like this article very much. We are in great peril if we place doctrine over the character. Actually there is no dichotomy between character and doctrine. Doctrine is tested by the fruit. “By their fruit you shall know them”.

    I checked two main portions on latter days apostasy in the Scripture – 2Tim. 3 and 1 Tim. 4. What I found is very interesting. 2 Tim. 3 mainly focuses on character, not doctrine – “men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money etc.” And when it talks about the need of the Scripture (v. 15-17), it says that it equips us for every good work, not for a proper knowledge in systematic theology.

    1 Tim. 4 starts with mentioning teachings: deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. It does not give many particulars, mentioning lies, forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from foods. But verse 7 sums up by telling us to exercise ourselves unto godliness. Actually godliness is one of the main themes of 1 & 2 Timothy. Apostasy has an appearance of godliness, but lacks the power thereof. Therefore, godliness is the main test of spirits.

    God bless!

  84. amy permalink
    August 26, 2008 9:49 pm

    OMG you are hilarious and awesome at making your points. (Well said, btw.) Thank you for keeping the main thing the main thing. It is refreshing to find a Christian who looks for the things to agree on insteading of magnifying discrepencies in ‘doctrine’ in order to point a finger. You’re a great writer and thank you for your dry sense of humor!

  85. rahabsplace permalink*
    August 26, 2008 9:57 pm

    Thank you, Amy. It’s nice to be appreciated.

  86. Sharily Greenlee permalink
    September 21, 2008 6:41 am

    Patsy Eastwood, you are a woman after my own heart. I so agree with your words. Think about it, what if we as a Body stopped judging others on what we are, or are not, doing and just encouraged one another in the Lord. The Word provides everything we need for foundational faith. We cannot add to it not can we take away from it…and far be it for anyone to be another’s Holy Spirit. It’s elitist to think one denomination has all the answers. The truth is that every denomination has doctrinal error in it somewhere due to the fact that man is fallible. So, shall we consider the plank in our own eye before we consider the sliver in anothers?
    Funny how people forget that one.

  87. Liz permalink
    February 17, 2009 1:27 pm

    THANK YOU!!!! Finally some sanity in an increasingly mean spirited church! The bible says if you see your brother in a fault, go to him in a spirit of MEEKNESS…lest you yourself be tempted. The pharisees have no meekness. I used to be one, and in my arrogance, I went after anyone I didn’t agree with. So my fall from grace was my own doing. All these heresy hunters are in grave danger of falling into the very sins they are railing against! Thank you again for the article!

  88. Angel from Seattle permalink
    April 27, 2009 12:26 pm

    Just attended the healing explosion, here in Seattle. Patricia King is one of the guest speakers. Her message are Spirit-inspired full of love for the body of Christ and everyone. And she is such a blessing to our church.

    Beware of doctrine police:

    “You shall know them by their fruits.”Matt 7:15-20

    “For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.” 1Corth 4:19-20

    “Having a form of godliness, buy denying the power thereof: form such turn away” 2Tim 3:5

    Doctrinally sound? many preachers and believers quote this verse,
    ISA 28:10 “for precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
    line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little.”
    and apply it to check doctrinal soundness of a church. But if one reads
    from verse 9 to 13, the context is for stubborn people.

    “…who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” 2Cor 3:2-6
    “…It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the
    words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.” John 6:63

    Also, true believers in Christ don’t seek signs, but signs and wonders follows them. Mark 16:17-18

  89. June 7, 2009 9:32 am

    Greetings to you,
    I am a high school student way down Africa. This morning on GOD-TV I enjoyed your massage in GOD’S word. And most importantly when did mention Africa you gave me the inspiration. I realize that though we are considered to be backward we are still not left behind, and thank you for your prayers and all in JESUS name.
    Franklin…………
    from Cameroon.

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